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Okay, we got a great interview for you today on the Every Church Flourishing
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Podcast. We are joined by Dr.
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Kristen Ferguson, who is a vice president at Gateway Seminary,
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a specialist in online education.
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But we also have two other friends of the podcast joining us, Dr.
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Kathy and Ms. Lynette. Dr. Kathy, why don't you introduce yourself and then Ms. Lynette.
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Yes, my name is Kathy Smith, and I serve as the Women in Ministry Ambassador
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with the Great Commission Association.
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I also am working some with another association as well, but my primary job
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is with women in ministry and just providing ways to encourage, equip, and engage them.
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Hi, I'm Ms. Lynette Lozano, and I work for the Great Commission Association
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as superintendent of schools.
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We own and operate eight preschools and a K-8 Anthem Christian School in Salinas.
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And so for the next few episodes, we're going to talk about the wonderful topic
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of women in ministry. And Dr.
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Ferguson is a vice president of one of the Southern Baptist seminaries. She is a pastor's wife.
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She has written books on online education and is really an expert in this space
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and it's great privilege to have her.
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So Dr. Ferguson, tell us a little bit about yourself and your work at Gateway. Yeah.
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Yeah, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. And I'm so excited to
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partner with you guys up in the Northern California area.
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So I grew up in Southern California, love California ministry,
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and am so passionate to see churches in the West have just robust biblical teaching
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paired with actual real-life mission work where we actually go and reach the
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nations for Jesus Christ.
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So I'm so privileged. I prayed and prayed and prayed as a young woman that God would somehow use me.
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And I didn't know how, and I didn't know what that would look like.
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And now sometimes I pray, maybe just use me like a little less because it's a little bit busy.
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You guys know what I'm talking about. It's just so cool to see how God just
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uses so many things and so many people to do his wonderful plan and his wonderful
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mission. I do have the great honor of being vice president, one of four.
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We have four vice presidents at Gateway Seminary and at Gateway.
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And so I work in the enrollment and student service offices and I oversee everything to do with students,
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which means I get to learn so many incredible stories and see so many wonderful
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ministries of Gateway students around the world, literally around the world doing things.
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Just incredible missional work. Gateway for 80 plus years now has existed to
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shape leaders to expand God's kingdom around the world.
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We're committed first and foremost to the Word of God as our authority,
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and we want to see the Word of God as the authority in every single church,
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and that will lead to incredible mission and leadership development.
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Fantastic. So I am a fan of the Southern Baptist seminaries,
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and I used to work for almost 10 years at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.
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My brother-in-law is the president now of the Birmingham Extension Center of
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Nobbitz, and before that, his dad was the leader of that mission.
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So I come from a long line of Southern Baptist people in seminary,
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and I'm becoming more and more of a fan of Gateway Seminary.
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Next week, we have Dr. Cameron Schweitzer, who's going to be on the podcast.
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Can't wait to interview him. So you did not ask for us to do this,
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but I want to do this. I want us to do this.
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Give us a plug. If you're a student or a pastor or a church leader in the West,
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or doesn't even have to be in the West. If you're considering Gateway Seminary,
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give us a plug. What makes Gateway special?
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Why should a prospective Bible teacher, church leader, pastor,
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evangelist, missionary, why should a scholar, Christian scholar,
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why should they consider coming to Gateway?
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Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Out of all the choices, why Gateway?
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Well, one of the answers is that we're actually not that different from all
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of our other Southern Baptist seminaries.
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We hold the same exact convictions. We believe in the Baptist faith and message.
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We believe in biblical convictions, and we have extremely rigorous scholarship.
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We also have very clear, real-world skill building that we do in our classrooms.
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But what's unique about Gateway really is the West.
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We started in the West, up in the Bay Area, and we have for 80 years served
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the Western United States and beyond now, which is really exciting.
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We have several campuses located across the West, in the Pacific Northwest,
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in Denver, in all kinds of areas.
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And Gateway truly believes that the context of the West is a unique opportunity
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for gospel advancement.
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We believe that it's a laboratory for students who maybe live outside of the
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West to learn how to go on the mission field.
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But it's also a mission field in and of itself.
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You know, I know Kathy here on the podcast today.
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Kathy and I have worked together to even partner to reach some of the unreached
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people groups, even just in California.
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So our context and our commitment to the Word of God is just a wonderful opportunity
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for leaders to grow in depth in their biblical knowledge, which is absolutely core to what we do,
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but also that real-life kind of rubber-meets-the-road practical ministry skill
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in a variety of contexts.
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Our faculty have been pastors, they've been missionaries, they're scholars,
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they're practitioners, and they help students work through those real-life ministry
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issues from a very solid theological and biblical context that makes ministry
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even more effective and the kingdom go out even further than it could before.
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Awesome. So my last question on this topic, and then we'll give it over to Ms.
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Lynette. Adam Groza strikes me as a pretty fascinating guy, and you get to work with him.
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What are you learning from him as president? What kind of leadership lessons
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and what kind of person is he behind the scenes?
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That's a great question. And it's very fun. I actually I've worked with Adam
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because before I became vice president and before he became president,
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he was in this role as vice president.
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So I've worked with him for a long time, but it's not until now since he's been
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president that I've gotten to work more closely with him.
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And before I became vice president, I always felt from my position,
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I always felt like Gateway was a very healthy organization, very low drama.
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Not very many silos, like obviously things that every organization has to work
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out just like everybody does, but very low drama.
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And I always, you know, I always appreciated that.
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But now having the privilege of sitting in the cabinet with the other vice presidents
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and the president, and then even like we're going to do next week,
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sit in trustee meetings with our trustees from all over the country,
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I realize now why it's a healthy.
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Organization is because it's healthy all the way through.
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There's no secret group happening that are conniving or doing something that
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misrepresents the gospel in some way.
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Truly, I've learned from Dr. Groza, the mission is so critically important and
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people are critically important.
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He will take the time out of his very busy schedule, travel schedule,
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to call a student who's lost a loved one.
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Or like this morning, he called a student, one of our doctor of ministry students
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who had a tragedy happen in their life.
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And I went to him at lunch and I said, hey, do you know about this student?
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He said, I already called him.
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That was before I even got to tell him about the student.
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So he's a people person. He cares deeply about the church.
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He's dedicated to the mission, not just advancing Gateway Seminary.
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He's dedicated to advancing God's kingdom.
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And if That means gateway is completely invisible in the process.
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That's totally fine with us because it's really not about gateway.
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We exist to support the church and support the mission of God.
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And that's just been so refreshing and healthy and makes us all very aligned
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with just worshiping God in that way together.
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That's a great answer. All right, over to you, Ms. Lynette.
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So do you think online distance hybrid education is the future for training
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ministers and church leaders, especially in geographically large areas in the
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West, or do you think traditional education?
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In-class education should still be the gold star, like that's what you're pushing for?
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That's a great question. And you mentioned earlier in your wonderful introduction
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of me that I have actually written on this topic.
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My doctoral thesis was on faculty perceptions of online education.
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And when I first came to Gateway in 2016, my role has been, up until I became
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VP, is to help design online classes and help faculty understand online education.
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So I have always been a major proponent and believer that online education can
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work and it should work because a lot of people believe it can work.
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Okay, yes, we can maybe accomplish the same objectives, but as Christians who
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are relational, especially in theological education where you're training ministry
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leaders, should we even do online education when your job is going to be people, people-oriented?
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And I've always been a very big proponent that online education can do that,
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but you have to plan it to do that.
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It's not going to do that if you just put a zillion videos in front of somebody
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and say, good luck relating to others in your context, but watch all these videos.
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That's not going to do it. So at Gateway, we've been very strategic and very
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intentional about keeping our class sizes actually very small on purpose so
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that the faculty member actually knows the people in the class.
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They know the ministry context and they have a lot of opportunity for real discussion.
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And we've also designed our online program to be very boots on the ground structured.
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I always used to say, I don't want to hear of any online class at Gateway Seminary
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where you can finish the whole thing in your pajamas.
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Not acceptable. Not acceptable at Gateway.
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If you never get out of your slippers, we have a big problem at Gateway.
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You need to be with people. You need to be leading change.
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You need to be sharing the gospel. You need to be active. and that requires
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a lot of planned instruction.
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But I will say that now becoming vice president, I am seeing so many churches.
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They appreciate online education, but they really actually want to learn in
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community, in their own church, which is really exciting because Adam, our president,
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has been really expanding Gateway recently with a lot of new teaching sites
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where it's located, the actual class is located in a church.
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And instead of making everybody come to our campus, we send a professor to you
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and your class, your church is the context of your class.
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So in that way, it's in person and it's church-based, it's contextual because you don't have to move.
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So what I think is that there is actually no one delivery method that is the gold standard.
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People talk about the gold standard. What's the gold standard of theological education?
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I would say that the gold standard of theological education is not a delivery method.
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The gold standard for theological education is education that's rooted in the Word of God.
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It's taught by very caring and competent faculty members, and it's crafted for
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the real-life context that you're
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going to be serving in. That could be online. That could be in person.
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That could be coming to Gateway and on our Ontario campus or in San Leandro.
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But whatever it is, it needs to be centered on the Word. It needs to have really
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competent professors who care, and it needs to have a real-life output context.
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Very nice. I know a couple of years ago when I took an online class,
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I've taken a couple of online classes, one not so good, one great.
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And the great one was very rooted in the word.
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And the classes were more connection. I felt more connected in this class than
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I did in sitting in a classroom with 50 other people.
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It changed my mind about how all of that really worked.
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It really does depend on being rooted in the word and exactly where the class
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is going and your professor who that school is teaching you. Thanks for sharing.
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So I come from the Southeast in Alabama, church on every street corner almost.
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People don't realize how big the West is. And so the strategy you're talking about, Dr.
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Ferguson, where it's kind of a hybrid strategy with, I assume,
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compressed interactive video or something like that, where classes are taking place in church.
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My background with New Orleans was I worked at the Birmingham Extension Center,
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which was at David Platt's Church of Brookhills when he was in Birmingham.
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And every now and then we would see him and he would say hello.
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And he drove a modest car, seemed like a great guy.
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But that was a great setup at that Extension Center.
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They let us use four, five, six classrooms, the church.
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And there was about 100 or so during my time there, about 100 to 150 students.
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And it was definitely part of New Orleans, but Birmingham is like five hours away from New Orleans.
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It was its own community too.
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So you have these pastors in Alabama who couldn't drive to Birmingham,
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but they also wanted education and they wanted in-person community.
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And I really think that kind of system would flourish in the West because we're
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even more spread out like pastors in San Francisco and pastors in Northern California
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would have a really hard time making it down to Southern California.
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Every week, maybe for a week intensive. I love the whole intensive model,
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but I think you guys are really on the right track given the geographic realities
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of church training in the West and the fact that pastors out here have so much
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less opportunity, I guess,
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for training than they do back in the good old South.
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And I think it's just a greatly needed thing. I think it could be a frontier
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for Gateway in the future.
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Well, the gospel need is so dramatic out here, and our pastors and our leaders
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are so vital in the location that they are serving.
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It's hard to send one of your up-and-coming leaders to go live elsewhere to
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do seminary and fear that they may never, ever come back.
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That's okay if they're going on the mission field or they go to the next assignment
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and God has that plan for them.
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But there is that drain, the leadership drain that has really been something
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in the West that's not as much an issue in other parts of the country.
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And you probably are aware that we just launched our new Hawaii campus,
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which everybody wants to go study at, of course.
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But in reality, there's a lot going on in Hawaii that is similar to
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in that a lot of people who serve in Hawaii, once they're ready to do leadership,
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they need to go elsewhere to train. And we really wanted to stop that.
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We want to keep Hawaiians who are native to that area, and they've grown up
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there. They know the culture.
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They're not just there for tourism. They know the people. We don't want them to have to leave.
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And the same is true in the Bay Area, in Southern California,
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in Denver, all of the locations that we serve.
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We want to help the church. We don't want to hurt the church by equipping.
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Amen. Amen. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. I don't know a whole lot about
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being a pastor's wife, but I'm married to one.
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But I suspect Kathy and Dr. Ferguson, you guys know a ton about that.
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So let's talk about that a little bit. Over to you, Kathy.
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Kristen, being a pastor's wife, as you know, can be extremely difficult. How do you,
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navigate that, especially being a mom and working at the seminary and serving
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in your many roles. I know you and I have talked about that a lot.
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The typical pastor wife answer is, oh, I don't know what you're talking about.
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Just so easy. No problem.
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No, I'm just kidding. I do think sometimes it's hard for pastor wives to share
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about the difficulties because it can often come off to people as unloving towards
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the church or maybe even criticism of your husband's ministry or something.
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And so I think a lot of times pastor wives feel that they can't share or they
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don't know who to share with.
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And in that way, they have to process a lot of things alone,
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which is why I think it's so wonderful to have our associations and our state
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convention and just networks of other pastor wives who can share,
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and your podcast is part of that as well, helping women who serve alongside
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their husbands feel heard and understood.
00:17:11.951 --> 00:17:17.311
I went to a funeral a few weeks ago of a member of our church,
00:17:17.311 --> 00:17:20.771
and a woman was there who was this man's neighbor.
00:17:20.971 --> 00:17:24.451
I never met this woman before, and she came up to me.
00:17:24.611 --> 00:17:28.611
Obviously, my husband did the funeral, and she came up to me,
00:17:28.611 --> 00:17:32.871
and she said, oh, I wanted to meet you because I was, she was an elderly woman.
00:17:33.011 --> 00:17:37.411
She was, she said, I was also a pastor's wife and I just wanted to meet you.
00:17:37.511 --> 00:17:42.411
And I, you know, I, I just looked at her in such like love. And I was just like,
00:17:42.571 --> 00:17:45.811
thank you so much for coming and speaking with me. And I asked her,
00:17:45.891 --> 00:17:47.471
I said, what's one thing you would tell me?
00:17:47.591 --> 00:17:52.371
Like, obviously you've lived your, your ministry life and now you're at the end there.
00:17:52.531 --> 00:17:55.871
And what's one thing you would tell me as advice.
00:17:56.171 --> 00:18:01.891
And she just was so plain and simple. She said, you just have to focus on really loving God.
00:18:02.525 --> 00:18:07.985
And I know that that's like the most basic answer, but the thing about being
00:18:07.985 --> 00:18:13.945
a pastor wife is there's so many horizontal demands, so many potlucks to plan,
00:18:14.205 --> 00:18:18.385
so many ministry needs, so much crisis counseling, so many calendaring of the
00:18:18.385 --> 00:18:21.785
events and juggling all of these things and kids.
00:18:22.005 --> 00:18:24.085
There's so many horizontal demands.
00:18:24.465 --> 00:18:31.245
It's so easy as a pastor wife to gauge our health and our temperature by the horizontal demands.
00:18:31.882 --> 00:18:36.962
Instead of really seeing ourselves as that vertical, like I am first and foremost
00:18:36.962 --> 00:18:41.402
a child of God and my relationship with God is the utmost importance.
00:18:41.602 --> 00:18:45.782
And if I can please him and everyone else is not pleased, then I've done enough.
00:18:45.902 --> 00:18:48.262
But it's so hard when everybody's demanding that of you.
00:18:48.402 --> 00:18:52.002
So if I could say one thing, I would reiterate what that woman told me too.
00:18:52.202 --> 00:18:56.662
It's just really have a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ and don't let
00:18:56.662 --> 00:18:59.982
the horizontal demands diminish your vibrant relationship with Christ.
00:19:00.142 --> 00:19:01.502
That's just the most important thing.
00:19:01.802 --> 00:19:05.762
That's so important. And I think that is, we understand that,
00:19:05.902 --> 00:19:11.282
but it's easy to forget about that in the midst of the criticism or in the loneliness,
00:19:11.282 --> 00:19:15.862
because I know a lot of pastors' wives have expressed just feeling lonely.
00:19:16.102 --> 00:19:20.562
And they are abiding in their relationship with the Lord, but they also desire
00:19:20.562 --> 00:19:24.802
to have relationships that they can see with skin on them.
00:19:24.982 --> 00:19:29.442
And so what would be an encouragement that you could give to pastors' wives
00:19:29.442 --> 00:19:33.122
that maybe feel lonely, like sometimes they find it hard to find deep friends
00:19:33.122 --> 00:19:37.862
in the church, but how could you encourage them to still maintain those relationships?
00:19:38.282 --> 00:19:43.162
Yeah, I would encourage friendships in the church where it's okay and helpful
00:19:43.162 --> 00:19:47.902
and I think sharing concerns that you have as a human being.
00:19:48.222 --> 00:19:52.082
I mean, the church is for you too. It's not just for everybody else.
00:19:52.282 --> 00:19:56.282
There's older women in the church. There's friends in the church that can be found.
00:19:56.482 --> 00:20:02.402
But I've also found that having a good friend or a few good friends outside
00:20:02.402 --> 00:20:05.022
of the church who are also in ministry leadership.
00:20:05.102 --> 00:20:07.782
I have a dear friend, her name's Amber.
00:20:08.062 --> 00:20:13.202
We met in seminary and she's pastor's wife in Lake Havasu, Arizona.
00:20:13.622 --> 00:20:15.962
And she and I, we don't talk all the time.
00:20:16.938 --> 00:20:21.558
Every probably a few months, we text each other and we say, oh, something happened.
00:20:21.878 --> 00:20:27.158
I'm feeling really hard about this or I don't like this direction or I don't know what to do.
00:20:27.278 --> 00:20:29.918
We just pray for me and we'll share scripture with one another.
00:20:30.098 --> 00:20:31.078
We'll pray for each other.
00:20:31.358 --> 00:20:35.238
And it's just nice to have that connection even outside of the church to be
00:20:35.238 --> 00:20:37.578
like, you're not crazy. Ministry's hard.
00:20:38.138 --> 00:20:42.178
But God is still good. And that kind of is a lifeline sometimes as well.
00:20:42.778 --> 00:20:47.458
Yes, those reminders are really important to remember. And it is easy to think
00:20:47.458 --> 00:20:51.778
that we're the only one experiencing those things, but sharing that can definitely help.
00:20:52.058 --> 00:20:56.858
Along that too, how can pastors protect and serve their wives?
00:20:57.178 --> 00:21:01.898
Well, the pastor being the husband. Obviously, I think there's some spiritual
00:21:01.898 --> 00:21:05.678
encouragement that needs to happen for pastor your wives.
00:21:05.878 --> 00:21:10.638
When a pastor comes home, he's not done being a shepherd.
00:21:10.878 --> 00:21:14.378
And that's really hard because it's tiring to be a shepherd.
00:21:14.638 --> 00:21:17.958
I know, I see it. And sometimes you just need a nap.
00:21:18.458 --> 00:21:23.738
That's okay too. But you're not done being a shepherd just because you got home.
00:21:23.898 --> 00:21:25.418
Your wife needs shepherding.
00:21:25.858 --> 00:21:27.818
She's probably processing a million
00:21:27.818 --> 00:21:32.258
things from her interactions at church or at work or with the kids.
00:21:32.538 --> 00:21:38.978
Being aware and available to be her shepherd too is really needed.
00:21:39.178 --> 00:21:42.138
She needs a pastor too, as well as a husband.
00:21:42.558 --> 00:21:46.918
So just being available for that spiritual encouragement, I think is really important.
00:21:47.738 --> 00:21:51.258
Protecting the calendar is really important.
00:21:51.698 --> 00:21:55.158
Oh my goodness, Ken, the calendar does totally get out of hand,
00:21:55.338 --> 00:21:57.278
right? Like the calendar, Woof!
00:21:57.518 --> 00:22:04.218
But there has to be planned family time regularly. The pastor and his family
00:22:04.218 --> 00:22:09.718
need to rest together, not just separate, or not just after the kids are finally
00:22:09.718 --> 00:22:12.058
in bed and then we get to binge watch a show.
00:22:12.358 --> 00:22:15.458
We all need to rest together sometimes.
00:22:15.498 --> 00:22:21.198
So taking those God-ordained rhythms just as he commanded, it is an obedience
00:22:21.198 --> 00:22:26.698
thing, but we have to take those times to rest. And then I really think affirmation.
00:22:26.798 --> 00:22:33.958
I know it's hard because like a pastor can go through challenges at church or
00:22:33.958 --> 00:22:39.298
there could be criticisms at church, but then sometimes that criticism is resolved
00:22:39.298 --> 00:22:41.358
and then there's affirmation that the pastor gets.
00:22:42.100 --> 00:22:47.000
And they get to experience maybe some reconciliation with the member that had the criticism.
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.700
But off to the side over here, who wasn't part of any of those conversations,
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.940
but definitely heard about them all, is the pastor's wife.
00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:58.440
And sometimes it's hard because you're like, I didn't experience the reconciliation
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.660
that you did, and I'm a little mad still.
00:23:00.820 --> 00:23:05.800
And it's nice if the pastor could be aware and kind of close the gap and help
00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:09.940
his wife understand like, okay, let's move towards forgiveness.
00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:13.480
Let's reconcile. Let's have that conversation if it's needed.
00:23:13.620 --> 00:23:17.480
But don't forget about her. She's been affected by those things too.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:23.580
And she needs to be part of the closure and the reconciliation side of things as well.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:28.180
And I think that goes a long way in preventing bitterness, which I think is
00:23:28.180 --> 00:23:34.460
a pastor's wife maybe number one enemy in ministry is developing resentment and bitterness.
00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:40.860
So I think that helping her see that reconciliation can be genuine and forgiveness
00:23:40.860 --> 00:23:45.120
can be real and we can actually have good relationships after conflict,
00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:47.220
she needs to be part of that sometimes.
00:23:48.041 --> 00:23:50.661
That's a great word. Now, Kathy, I know you have one more question,
00:23:50.821 --> 00:23:52.661
but let me throw in a quick story here.
00:23:52.841 --> 00:23:57.961
I tend to learn by failing better than I learned by succeeding.
00:23:58.661 --> 00:24:04.041
And along these lines, I had a recent failure that maybe hopefully some other
00:24:04.041 --> 00:24:09.881
dumb pastor men can learn from. I was in our house walking from my office to the bedroom.
00:24:10.101 --> 00:24:14.501
My wife, Janet, who is a wonderful pastor's wife, was in the kitchen talking with my daughter.
00:24:14.741 --> 00:24:21.161
As I walked by, I made a joke about Janet, and it was very innocent and not
00:24:21.161 --> 00:24:24.081
meant at all, and I kept walking.
00:24:24.301 --> 00:24:29.981
Later that night, I realized that this had greatly hurt her feelings,
00:24:30.021 --> 00:24:32.061
and we were talking about it.
00:24:32.181 --> 00:24:38.581
It ended up not being about the joke. It ended up being that when I walked by
00:24:38.581 --> 00:24:41.261
in the kitchen, she was struggling with something.
00:24:41.501 --> 00:24:44.021
I made a joke. I exited.
00:24:44.301 --> 00:24:51.301
I didn't see her. I didn't see my wife. I didn't look at her and see the hurt.
00:24:51.481 --> 00:24:54.421
I just breezed in and breezed out.
00:24:54.661 --> 00:24:58.621
So I'm trying to learn from those sorts of things. And if you're a dude pastor
00:24:58.621 --> 00:25:02.901
who's listening to this, I think the advice would be see your wife.
00:25:03.421 --> 00:25:07.741
Don't just breeze in and breeze out and do what I did. Go ahead, Kathy.
00:25:08.221 --> 00:25:14.381
That's really great advice. And I think those things help the wives to continue
00:25:14.381 --> 00:25:18.861
to be able to love the church as Jesus loves the church,
00:25:18.881 --> 00:25:23.761
because it is certainly hard when there's hurt from within the congregation
00:25:23.761 --> 00:25:25.741
or things that are said, criticism.
00:25:26.001 --> 00:25:31.341
What are some other ways that you would maybe encourage pastor wives to continue
00:25:31.341 --> 00:25:35.121
to be able to love the church, like Jesus loves the church. Yeah,
00:25:35.341 --> 00:25:37.041
that is such a great perspective.
00:25:37.261 --> 00:25:41.421
It actually is kind of fresh for me, to be honest with you. In our church,
00:25:41.421 --> 00:25:44.141
we recently changed our bylaws.
00:25:44.401 --> 00:25:47.741
And if you have ever been through that process...
00:25:47.933 --> 00:25:54.713
It was two years process for us. And I'm so proud of my husband and his godliness
00:25:54.713 --> 00:25:55.873
through that whole process.
00:25:56.173 --> 00:26:00.673
But just like any change in any church, this is not like a unique thing to our
00:26:00.673 --> 00:26:05.273
church, but like any change, there's going to be moments of like friction and conflict and things.
00:26:05.633 --> 00:26:09.773
And this is a, you know, there's a lot that can happen in that process of change
00:26:09.773 --> 00:26:15.153
where I think for a while, I just sort of like white knuckled it through a little
00:26:15.153 --> 00:26:17.733
bit because I'm like, I don't know how this is going to go.
00:26:17.933 --> 00:26:20.873
Are they going to vote yes? Are they going to vote no?
00:26:21.113 --> 00:26:25.753
And I noticed I sort of white knuckled. OK, and I didn't really know I was kind
00:26:25.753 --> 00:26:28.153
of just grinning and bearing it a little bit.
00:26:28.833 --> 00:26:32.873
Probably should have like released that to the Lord and dealt with it with the
00:26:32.873 --> 00:26:34.913
Lord a little bit more. And I did not.
00:26:35.053 --> 00:26:37.333
But I just kind of like hunkered down for this change.
00:26:37.853 --> 00:26:42.493
And praise the Lord. They voted yes. Our bylaws are changed. Hallelujah.
00:26:43.013 --> 00:26:47.213
My husband's doing a great job leading that. But a couple of months after the
00:26:47.213 --> 00:26:52.973
vote, I realized I was still a little angry.
00:26:53.413 --> 00:26:58.433
Honestly, that's the only word I can. I just had to be really raw here. I was a little angry.
00:26:58.925 --> 00:27:02.185
I was a little angry that it had to be so complicated or there was friction.
00:27:02.425 --> 00:27:05.365
Not that that's unexpected. That's every church. There's friction.
00:27:05.505 --> 00:27:08.845
There's people. Humans are humans. But I was still a little angry.
00:27:09.205 --> 00:27:13.105
And in God's providence, like truly, this is just totally God's providence.
00:27:13.325 --> 00:27:16.865
My husband had allowed one of the students at Gateway to lead our Wednesday
00:27:16.865 --> 00:27:23.205
night ministry, and he chose to go through every image of the church used in the Bible.
00:27:23.565 --> 00:27:28.705
So like church as a family, church as the bride, church as the kingdom.
00:27:28.925 --> 00:27:36.305
And every week for like three months, we're meditating on the beauty of the church. Wow.
00:27:36.525 --> 00:27:39.545
And it has been so healing for me.
00:27:39.705 --> 00:27:44.905
And I have really had to repent of some of the anger that I had and realize
00:27:44.905 --> 00:27:46.465
that that's just people.
00:27:46.865 --> 00:27:52.645
That's God's plan. And that God did use all of those things to make the bylaws
00:27:52.645 --> 00:27:56.825
even better and to make the church even better. And it's just been really healing
00:27:56.825 --> 00:28:00.145
to go through scripture and see the church as God sees.
00:28:00.285 --> 00:28:03.965
Because when I see it through my own eyes, I'm like, you hurt my feelings, you know.
00:28:04.565 --> 00:28:08.105
But when I see it with God's eyes, he's like, I died for the church.
00:28:08.365 --> 00:28:10.125
You know, it's a really different perspective.
00:28:10.790 --> 00:28:15.650
So my number one, my number one recommendation would just be truly to,
00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:20.750
I think, really align your view of the church with God's.
00:28:21.070 --> 00:28:27.850
Look at the bride like God does, that he died to save these people in all of
00:28:27.850 --> 00:28:33.570
their sin and your sin too, and all of the ugliness and all of the conflict that can often happen.
00:28:33.830 --> 00:28:39.450
Like he knew all of that and he still died for us. And so, you know,
00:28:39.530 --> 00:28:42.650
every once in a while there can be conflict that's painful or things that make
00:28:42.650 --> 00:28:45.610
us angry, but it's not the right view. That's not God's view.
00:28:45.770 --> 00:28:51.010
That definitely helps to put things back in perspective for sure and to see it correctly.
00:28:51.290 --> 00:28:53.050
Thank you so much. That's really helpful.
00:28:53.310 --> 00:28:56.690
Okay. Well, let's talk a little bit about special needs ministry.
00:28:56.830 --> 00:29:01.810
Dr. Ferguson, I know this is an area of great interest and passion for you.
00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:07.770
At our church, we kind of have this philosophy. I grew up in the South,
00:29:07.970 --> 00:29:14.070
sports metaphors are probably too dominant in my thinking, but I call it everybody plays ball.
00:29:14.330 --> 00:29:20.050
And for us, that means the senior citizens have roles, the young people have roles.
00:29:20.210 --> 00:29:26.490
We have a 21, 22-year-old deacon in training, and we have deacons that are in
00:29:26.490 --> 00:29:31.210
their mid-70s. We try to have everybody in position playing ball.
00:29:31.390 --> 00:29:35.690
We have some special needs people that have real significant roles in the church
00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:41.570
in various places. We recently had one of our most powerful gatherings in church
00:29:41.570 --> 00:29:46.150
of the last year where I didn't know what happened.
00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:50.150
The worship was magnificent and powerful.
00:29:50.470 --> 00:29:53.310
And we had an altar call. This is a Baptist church, right?
00:29:53.350 --> 00:29:58.170
We had an altar call before the message. And I just was like kind of blindsided
00:29:58.170 --> 00:30:00.150
by the whole thing. And afterwards, my wife,
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:05.419
Told me that during the worship practice, before everything kicked off,
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:12.399
a young man in our church, his name is Sage, who's special needs and is really mostly nonverbal.
00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:17.959
He was worshiping so hard during practice. And the worship team saw that.
00:30:18.219 --> 00:30:22.279
And I don't know, the dynamic is just, it was like fire.
00:30:22.579 --> 00:30:29.519
And just last night at our church, I'll just be honest with you, I didn't no sage talk.
00:30:29.779 --> 00:30:32.879
I've been around him a lot and maybe I just didn't understand him.
00:30:32.999 --> 00:30:36.799
I always say hello to him, always talk to him. But one of the ladies in their
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.699
Bible study told me that during their prayer time, sage said,
00:30:41.899 --> 00:30:46.479
we need to pray for Pastor Chase and Janet. I was blown away.
00:30:46.719 --> 00:30:49.719
I mean, just what a special, magnificent thing.
00:30:49.939 --> 00:30:56.679
And I think churches that don't see the wonderful giftings and things these
00:30:56.679 --> 00:31:00.859
wonderful people bring to the table are like pastors who don't see their wives.
00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:04.899
It's just a huge blunder. So what do you think, Dr. Ferguson?
00:31:05.319 --> 00:31:09.959
Yeah, oh, I love that story so much. And yeah, I agree.
00:31:10.419 --> 00:31:16.259
My son has a variety of learning disorders and he's verbal and happy.
00:31:16.459 --> 00:31:23.019
He does jujitsu and all sorts of fun things, but it's been hard to learn what
00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:30.099
it's like to be a special needs mom. and do that in ministry and figure out how that all fits.
00:31:30.419 --> 00:31:36.499
And it's funny because before I knew that my son had some of these challenges,
00:31:36.499 --> 00:31:43.279
I went to a conference from WMU chapter down here in Southern California that my friend put on.
00:31:43.439 --> 00:31:46.379
And I don't know why, but I went to the special needs breakout.
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:50.019
I truly, I had no reason to go. I just went to the special needs breakout.
00:31:50.626 --> 00:31:54.286
And I bawled my eyes out the entire time. And I'm not a crier,
00:31:54.426 --> 00:31:56.226
people. People cry in my office sometimes.
00:31:56.646 --> 00:32:02.246
I just, I don't know. I don't express like that. But I was crying in this because
00:32:02.246 --> 00:32:03.906
it was a special needs mom.
00:32:04.146 --> 00:32:09.266
And she, the entire breakout, it was not like a lecture at Gateway where you
00:32:09.266 --> 00:32:11.866
have like, you know, like references and footnotes.
00:32:11.866 --> 00:32:20.006
She narrated her son's involvement in church and her son's ministry to others
00:32:20.006 --> 00:32:22.666
as a nonverbal autistic boy.
00:32:23.466 --> 00:32:27.086
And it was magnificent. Just like you were talking about, Chase.
00:32:27.386 --> 00:32:34.526
This young man stands in the back of the sanctuary and dances with his entire
00:32:34.526 --> 00:32:36.646
body at every worship song.
00:32:36.646 --> 00:32:40.406
And is just like this extraordinary picture of
00:32:40.406 --> 00:32:45.386
unrestrained praise and she talked about how the church was like you know at
00:32:45.386 --> 00:32:49.826
first they're like is this okay is this okay that he's doing this you know like
00:32:49.826 --> 00:32:53.926
we don't really do this and then they just totally accepted it and they're so
00:32:53.926 --> 00:32:57.846
like they like champion this like he's our praise leader and
00:32:58.188 --> 00:33:02.548
Then like she talked about how he shares the gospel with like pictures and he's
00:33:02.548 --> 00:33:04.748
like showing people pictures of the gospel.
00:33:04.968 --> 00:33:08.428
And she really set me up. I don't even remember her name, honestly,
00:33:08.588 --> 00:33:13.528
but she set me up to become a special needs mom, I think, in a big way to realize,
00:33:13.748 --> 00:33:19.428
like you said, Chase, that every single image bearer has a very critical and
00:33:19.428 --> 00:33:23.588
important role to display the glory of God in this world.
00:33:23.888 --> 00:33:28.508
And do I wish that it was a little easier sometimes? like, yeah,
00:33:28.728 --> 00:33:32.488
I do wish it was easier, but all kids have different challenges.
00:33:33.008 --> 00:33:37.508
All kids have different things that we have to learn how to help them through as parents.
00:33:37.668 --> 00:33:41.888
But I think as far as ministry is concerned, I love that everybody plays ball.
00:33:42.048 --> 00:33:44.088
I love that. That's absolutely true.
00:33:44.548 --> 00:33:48.928
I think inclusion is really important, but also just awareness.
00:33:49.308 --> 00:33:52.828
Inclusion doesn't mean like everybody's treated exactly the same way because
00:33:52.828 --> 00:33:55.828
there are significant needs.
00:33:55.948 --> 00:33:59.168
Like I want my son to really understand the Bible story.
00:33:59.468 --> 00:34:04.528
And it's going to take like 20 times more work for me and the teacher to help
00:34:04.528 --> 00:34:08.288
my son understand some of the nuances of that Bible story than the other kids.
00:34:08.428 --> 00:34:11.408
You know, you think of like public school terminology, like there does need
00:34:11.408 --> 00:34:15.908
to be some accommodation where it's like, I'm going to go the extra mile,
00:34:16.008 --> 00:34:17.928
which is what we're about as Christians.
00:34:18.108 --> 00:34:21.228
Like we'll go to the ends of the earth to share the gospel. Well,
00:34:21.368 --> 00:34:25.588
with our special needs kids and our special needs adults in our church, like.
00:34:25.848 --> 00:34:31.888
Let's go the extra mile and try numerous ways and a variety of ways to make
00:34:31.888 --> 00:34:36.508
sure they're really understanding God's love and God's plan and His care for them.
00:34:36.628 --> 00:34:39.468
So it does take a lot of work, but it's totally worth it.
00:34:39.548 --> 00:34:44.968
And as far as serving special needs families, I reiterate what that woman taught
00:34:44.968 --> 00:34:48.988
me at that conference is special needs families are so easy to...
00:34:49.087 --> 00:34:53.827
To love. They seem really scary to love because you don't know all the technical
00:34:53.827 --> 00:34:57.887
terms of all the diagnoses and what might be involved with that.
00:34:57.987 --> 00:35:00.587
You don't need to know all that. They already know that stuff.
00:35:00.707 --> 00:35:03.027
You don't need to be the expert on the diagnoses.
00:35:03.247 --> 00:35:09.547
Nobody's expecting the ministry leader to be an expert at dyslexia or nonverbal communication.
00:35:09.707 --> 00:35:13.527
That's okay if you're not an expert. But what the special needs families need
00:35:13.527 --> 00:35:20.767
is love and rest and affirmation and encouragement and they need to be seen
00:35:20.767 --> 00:35:22.427
and they need to be said like, hey,
00:35:22.607 --> 00:35:27.367
you are doing a really good job helping your child see Jesus.
00:35:27.567 --> 00:35:30.507
I know this is extra hard, but you're doing a good job.
00:35:30.747 --> 00:35:35.587
So that would be my encouragement to pastors and ministry leaders is just love
00:35:35.587 --> 00:35:37.887
those special needs families.
00:35:37.947 --> 00:35:42.367
Make sure they know they're doing a good job and go the extra mile to help their
00:35:42.787 --> 00:35:48.087
loved one whoever has the special needs to know the gospel yeah amen amen,
00:35:49.195 --> 00:35:50.995
Okay, so I'm going to take a step back.
00:35:51.135 --> 00:35:55.895
And we're going to talk about women in ministry in California and the West.
00:35:56.095 --> 00:35:58.155
And Kathy's got some questions, and Ms.
00:36:05.275 --> 00:36:08.815
Finish out the podcast. But for now, you ladies take it away.
00:36:09.535 --> 00:36:14.975
So Kristen, do you think that the church in California and the West in general
00:36:14.975 --> 00:36:20.315
is properly and so effectively mobilizing women in ministry roles?
00:36:20.615 --> 00:36:25.355
I guess there's never a moment in time that all people have been used to their
00:36:25.355 --> 00:36:28.495
maximum extent to do ministry.
00:36:28.495 --> 00:36:33.495
Like the scripture said, like Jesus said, like the harvest is plentiful and
00:36:33.495 --> 00:36:39.555
the workers are few. So I guess in keeping with that, I would probably say a
00:36:39.555 --> 00:36:41.275
little bit, but there's more.
00:36:41.495 --> 00:36:43.755
Or yes, but more.
00:36:44.315 --> 00:36:47.515
I don't think that women are not being used.
00:36:47.735 --> 00:36:54.075
I think I see in every church I've ever participated in, I see a numerous amount
00:36:54.075 --> 00:36:59.595
of women doing very critical gospel work in every church.
00:36:59.595 --> 00:37:05.335
I can think of my church, numerous women who, if they were not doing the service00:37:05.335 --> 00:37:11.255
part that they are doing, our church would be much less effective at reaching00:37:11.255 --> 00:37:12.675
our community for Christ.00:37:12.915 --> 00:37:18.415
So I think that women are absolutely being used in our churches.00:37:18.935 --> 00:37:21.055
But is there more to do?00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:24.930
Like, yes, there's so much more to do.00:37:24.950 --> 00:37:30.750
And there's so many ways to use the skills and giftings and talents and networks00:37:30.750 --> 00:37:37.430
even and special access that only women get. I think about my friend Carola00:37:37.430 --> 00:37:39.570
Manriquez, who also works here at Gateway.00:37:39.730 --> 00:37:43.830
She goes to our church. She's involved in the after hours ministry.00:37:43.830 --> 00:37:46.570
Are you guys familiar with that? It's through NAMM.00:37:46.910 --> 00:37:51.350
Yeah. And so they go kind of like in the middle of the night down into L.A.00:37:51.750 --> 00:37:56.290
And attempt to share the gospel and minister to women who are in sex trafficking.00:37:56.570 --> 00:38:03.850
And there's so much that only women really can do.00:38:04.030 --> 00:38:08.690
There are men involved in that ministry, and they serve a very particular kind00:38:08.690 --> 00:38:10.090
of role in that ministry.00:38:10.310 --> 00:38:15.230
But, you know, these are special moments that we need to deploy a lot more women00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:16.990
to get a lot more work done. I agree.00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:21.010
And being a woman in ministry, because my husband is not a pastor,00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:26.050
I can relate to a lot of what pastors' wives go through, the loneliness and00:38:26.050 --> 00:38:28.790
not being able to have anybody to talk to.00:38:29.230 --> 00:38:33.890
Just being in the church and really involved, I think that it's getting better,00:38:34.210 --> 00:38:35.750
but I think purposely involved.00:38:36.754 --> 00:38:41.754
Putting into women and letting them know it's okay, because a lot of them feel00:38:41.754 --> 00:38:45.194
restrained, and they step back because they don't feel it's their place.00:38:45.514 --> 00:38:49.634
So giving them the permissions, but that needs to come from the leadership and00:38:49.634 --> 00:38:53.674
the deacons and the pastor to allow those things to happen.00:38:53.814 --> 00:38:56.054
And I think it's happening slowly.00:38:56.254 --> 00:39:01.274
It's not happening as fast as it could be, which would actually enhance the00:39:01.274 --> 00:39:06.814
church and the ministries, because I see women are the ones that are stepping up.00:39:07.054 --> 00:39:11.754
A lot of the men, some men do, but more women, they're like,00:39:12.034 --> 00:39:14.314
come on, put me out there. Let's do this.00:39:15.114 --> 00:39:20.634
Let's do this. Yeah. And I think that one of the things that I know is very00:39:20.634 --> 00:39:26.714
typical in churches is a lot of kind of stage time, pulpit time,00:39:27.314 --> 00:39:29.714
Bible teacher time dedicated to,00:39:30.326 --> 00:39:35.546
really explaining and understanding those Bible passages that we all love and00:39:35.546 --> 00:39:41.026
submit ourselves to about the different ways that men and women both serve in00:39:41.026 --> 00:39:42.726
different contexts and different roles.00:39:43.006 --> 00:39:51.006
But sometimes I think we lack a little creativity and opportunity that we lay00:39:51.006 --> 00:39:56.106
before women because we are so concerned with getting those passages just right,00:39:56.226 --> 00:39:58.346
which don't get me wrong, that's very important.00:39:58.426 --> 00:40:04.306
We have to understand those passages so we know what God intends for the way that we serve.00:40:04.626 --> 00:40:08.326
But in that same conversation and in that same moment,00:40:08.966 --> 00:40:15.966
opening up all of our eyes to the variety of ways that God needs and wants women00:40:15.966 --> 00:40:21.166
to involve themselves in the kingdom work is, I think, very exciting.00:40:21.326 --> 00:40:26.506
We want those passages to be taught with like, we want to get up right now and go do it.00:40:26.686 --> 00:40:30.026
You know, we want some energy and urgency for the gospel ministry.00:40:30.246 --> 00:40:33.926
Even though there are different roles, there's so much work to be done that00:40:33.926 --> 00:40:35.746
is very critical and very important.00:40:35.966 --> 00:40:42.426
I think along those lines, sometimes it's easy to get caught in certain things that women.00:40:43.110 --> 00:40:47.410
Don't necessarily do in our complementarian view.00:40:47.630 --> 00:40:53.050
And we forget, like you're saying, to be creative and encourage ways to show00:40:53.050 --> 00:40:54.710
women where they can serve.00:40:55.010 --> 00:41:00.030
And I know that I've seen several statistics lately that there's a lot of women00:41:00.030 --> 00:41:04.610
that are leaving the church, especially younger women. And I read into some00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:09.310
of why those reasonings were, why people think that, and they're still trying to figure out a lot of it.00:41:09.390 --> 00:41:15.290
But some of it is because women, the way that we approach women's ministry and00:41:15.290 --> 00:41:19.850
then women hasn't really changed in some churches in a really long time.00:41:20.050 --> 00:41:24.570
And so it's focused that they some one statistics that even in 50 years,00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:25.790
it hasn't changed that much.00:41:25.890 --> 00:41:31.270
So we're still thinking of women as being the primary volunteers in a lot of ways in the church.00:41:31.310 --> 00:41:35.250
But women are really busy these days, more so than they were.00:41:35.450 --> 00:41:39.530
Well, not necessarily more so, but in a different way than they were 50 years ago.00:41:39.790 --> 00:41:44.570
And so how the church approaches that has to start to look a little bit different.00:41:44.830 --> 00:41:49.310
And I think that's challenging, but I know, Kristen, you and I have talked about00:41:49.310 --> 00:41:52.230
missional complementarianism and how that works.00:41:52.230 --> 00:41:58.050
And I saw you had written something about it's God's order fuels the mission00:41:58.050 --> 00:42:00.530
or something like that is what you said.00:42:00.670 --> 00:42:05.930
And I think that's so important to focus on the mission and how we move forward in that.00:42:06.110 --> 00:42:10.910
So I don't know if you can share some more insight into that in ways that that00:42:10.910 --> 00:42:17.910
the, that churches can really help to encourage women to be on mission and to use those gifts.00:42:17.990 --> 00:42:21.510
So they're not going elsewhere and finding another place to serve,00:42:21.510 --> 00:42:23.390
but they can also find that in the local church.00:42:23.971 --> 00:42:29.671
Yeah, absolutely. Missional complementarianism is just a term that my husband00:42:29.671 --> 00:42:34.351
and I use when we shepherd other couples and we talk about this topic.00:42:34.691 --> 00:42:39.791
And it's the best way we have found to describe the way we think that the Bible00:42:39.791 --> 00:42:41.371
talks about complementarianism.00:42:41.551 --> 00:42:47.011
We're very committed that a pastor should be a man, a pastor elder should be00:42:47.011 --> 00:42:52.651
a man, and women come alongside and have critical roles to play in kingdom expansion.00:42:53.531 --> 00:42:58.991
And so missional complementarian really helps us take our eyes to not just focus00:42:58.991 --> 00:43:04.511
on the role part of it, not just like, well, you do these things and I do these things.00:43:04.671 --> 00:43:08.331
I think it's helping us understand like, what are we all do?00:43:08.491 --> 00:43:10.311
What are we as the body of Christ?00:43:10.511 --> 00:43:17.431
Even non-pastoral men have a part in this whole missional opportunity to share00:43:17.431 --> 00:43:19.711
the gospel and take the gospel to the kingdom.00:43:20.111 --> 00:43:25.391
And if you focus on the kingdom of God and see, okay, we each have a part to00:43:25.391 --> 00:43:30.151
play, whether it's gifting, role, whatever it is, we all have a part to play.00:43:30.251 --> 00:43:36.291
It helps really drive that you are to be utilized.00:43:36.511 --> 00:43:42.851
You have a part to play. It's not just you stand over there while the rest of us do the thing.00:43:43.011 --> 00:43:48.311
It's we are all doing this thing together, but we all have different parts to play in it.00:43:48.411 --> 00:43:53.751
Just like 1 Corinthians 12 teaches us about spiritual gifting and the members of the body.00:43:53.951 --> 00:43:57.291
That's literally what we're talking about when it comes to men and women as00:43:57.291 --> 00:44:03.591
well, that we all have a role to play, even if women are not playing that leadership pastoral role.00:44:03.871 --> 00:44:07.871
I think that's really important. And part of that,00:44:08.031 --> 00:44:13.731
I think it involves helping women to know how to make disciples and sometimes00:44:13.731 --> 00:44:19.011
like being intentional to do that is sometimes maybe we assume that people know00:44:19.011 --> 00:44:21.991
more than they do. At least I've, I've come to find that, that.00:44:22.459 --> 00:44:25.379
People know they're supposed to make disciples, but sometimes they're not really00:44:25.379 --> 00:44:26.499
sure what that looks like.00:44:26.659 --> 00:44:31.759
So how could the church also help women in that way? Women need the Word of00:44:31.759 --> 00:44:34.459
God, and they need it in a serious way.00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:39.619
Like, we want our women to be faithful to interpret the Word of God accurately.00:44:39.659 --> 00:44:44.219
If it's important for our pastors to interpret the Word of God accurately,00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:48.399
it's important for the people who are volunteering in the kids' ministry And00:44:48.399 --> 00:44:53.079
the people who are also doing discipleship or counseling or sharing the gospel,00:44:53.379 --> 00:44:58.539
every person at our church, we want them to know the Bible and we want them00:44:58.539 --> 00:45:03.519
to interpret it faithfully so that they can take the gospel faithfully to the nations.00:45:03.859 --> 00:45:08.479
So I think one of the most important things is don't give any group,00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:13.039
including women, don't give them the light stuff.00:45:13.339 --> 00:45:17.799
We all need meat. We all need the word of God.00:45:18.139 --> 00:45:24.339
And we all need to grow in it seriously. It's a skill-building opportunity to00:45:24.339 --> 00:45:28.539
develop your hermeneutic, to develop your understanding of the Old and New Testament.00:45:28.899 --> 00:45:34.259
And to be able to understand the nuances of various genres in Scripture and00:45:34.259 --> 00:45:39.259
how to get the main point out of a passage and how to interpret that faithfully00:45:39.259 --> 00:45:42.459
and apply it faithfully. Women need to know that stuff.00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:48.139
And so don't skimp on that stuff. Give them the meat and let them do what it00:45:48.139 --> 00:45:52.799
says to do, and they'll find ways to serve God faithfully in that. That's a great word.00:45:53.019 --> 00:45:58.699
But before we shift to AI, do you ladies have any more questions or you want00:45:58.699 --> 00:46:02.959
to go further up, further in on this conversation? I love the idea that you're00:46:02.959 --> 00:46:05.799
talking about, which is missional complementarianism.00:46:05.999 --> 00:46:08.219
Anything else that we need to say about all that?00:46:08.219 --> 00:46:12.399
Well, I think there's a lot more that could be said that probably not fit in this time frame.00:46:13.279 --> 00:46:16.139
Okay. Well, I think especially...00:46:16.437 --> 00:46:22.477
Again, people in other parts of the country don't know how populous the West is.00:46:22.717 --> 00:46:28.777
The church that is not engaging every member in ministry and understanding the00:46:28.777 --> 00:46:33.757
spiritual gifts and the missional call of every member and understanding that00:46:33.757 --> 00:46:36.277
the people who followed Jesus around,00:46:36.717 --> 00:46:38.537
yes, there were 12 dudes.00:46:38.537 --> 00:46:43.557
But there were also this group of women that were essentially always there taking00:46:43.557 --> 00:46:47.157
care of their needs, managing things, doing all of this incredible ministry.00:46:47.277 --> 00:46:53.497
When we don't understand that dynamic, buddy, we are missing out on touchdowns00:46:53.497 --> 00:46:56.997
we should be scoring and fruit of the kingdom we should be making.00:46:57.517 --> 00:47:01.277
Kathy, one of the things that you and I had talked about on that same note,00:47:01.417 --> 00:47:07.877
Chase, that you just reminded me of is really examining what leadership is in scripture.00:47:08.577 --> 00:47:13.417
As far as I'm aware, in scripture, leadership is not just the leader goes and does stuff.00:47:13.757 --> 00:47:19.257
Leadership is a deep connection with the people around, and a faithful leader00:47:19.257 --> 00:47:26.057
will take account of all of the resources, all of the skills under their care.00:47:26.636 --> 00:47:31.556
And deploy them strategically for the gospel. So it's not a very good leader00:47:31.556 --> 00:47:36.016
who's like, I have this huge asset here with all these skills and resources,00:47:36.016 --> 00:47:40.016
but you don't do anything. You just stay over there because I'm the leader.00:47:40.116 --> 00:47:44.776
And I think sometimes it's like the leader is insecure that this follower is00:47:44.776 --> 00:47:48.416
going to outshine or something, but that's actually a good,00:47:48.636 --> 00:47:53.396
that actually looks good on the leader for the leader to deploy somebody who00:47:53.396 --> 00:47:55.576
has skill and who has ability.00:47:56.096 --> 00:48:00.296
That's a good leader to say like, I don't really care about how I look in this,00:48:00.396 --> 00:48:01.676
but I care about the mission.00:48:01.816 --> 00:48:06.576
Even if other people are doing lots of good things and I'm championing them00:48:06.576 --> 00:48:10.736
and I fall into the background like a Barnabas, you know, and I deploy other00:48:10.736 --> 00:48:12.976
people to do it. That's good leadership.00:48:13.256 --> 00:48:19.236
And I think often women are sometimes to the side or it's a bubble on the side00:48:19.236 --> 00:48:20.476
and we're part of the meat.00:48:20.596 --> 00:48:24.036
We're part of the core. We're part of the church and we want to be deployed.00:48:24.036 --> 00:48:27.316
We want to go and we want to share and we want to risk it all.00:48:27.456 --> 00:48:33.896
We want women in our churches to go across the world and die for the sake of the gospel.00:48:34.116 --> 00:48:38.376
Like we don't want to just do the light stuff. We want to serve God with everything00:48:38.376 --> 00:48:40.196
we have, even if it costs us everything.00:48:40.416 --> 00:48:44.956
And I think looking at women in our churches like that will help our pastors00:48:44.956 --> 00:48:46.036
deploy them effectively.00:48:46.476 --> 00:48:46.676
Yeah.00:48:46.676 --> 00:48:50.636
Well, it also helps them not to be marginalized because they think when there00:48:50.636 --> 00:48:55.556
are just kind of set off in a corner, which is true for the special needs population.00:48:55.556 --> 00:48:57.816
I was a director of special needs before.00:48:58.016 --> 00:49:01.896
And the same thing can happen with them anytime any group of people,00:49:02.096 --> 00:49:04.836
not just a gender, but a group of people is marginalized.00:49:05.607 --> 00:49:09.287
They're not really being deployed in the way that the Lord wanted.00:49:09.467 --> 00:49:13.307
And if we look at Jesus' life, He didn't marginalize any group.00:49:13.587 --> 00:49:17.667
He didn't even marginalize women. He engaged them. He engaged sick people.00:49:17.747 --> 00:49:19.887
He engaged poor people. He engaged rich people.00:49:20.067 --> 00:49:26.847
He engaged all the groups of people. And I think that's a great reminder. Thank you.00:49:27.267 --> 00:49:32.787
Yeah, it's not without reason that our missionary giving heroes in the Baptist00:49:32.787 --> 00:49:35.407
church are Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon.00:49:35.607 --> 00:49:40.287
And not a couple of guys, because we have these great examples of ladies who00:49:40.287 --> 00:49:46.567
are incredibly fruitful and braver than 99.99% of men out there on the mission00:49:46.567 --> 00:49:48.847
field, mobilizing and doing the work of the kingdom.00:49:49.167 --> 00:49:54.807
And maybe we don't honor them enough. Okay, let's shift gears again and talk00:49:54.807 --> 00:49:57.267
a little bit about artificial intelligence in the church.00:49:57.447 --> 00:50:02.507
And I want to get from you, Dr. Ferguson, your best tips on how to use AI for00:50:02.507 --> 00:50:07.247
writing my sermon. yeah i'm just kidding yeah00:50:07.247 --> 00:50:11.147
That's a horrible thing yeah you know it's so easy you know it really cuts your time down.00:50:11.147 --> 00:50:13.987
It can man i barely have00:50:13.987 --> 00:50:18.747
to do anything these days with gemini and no i'm just kidding but one thing00:50:18.747 --> 00:50:23.987
i've noticed and i bet you guys have too there is a very vocal group of people00:50:23.987 --> 00:50:31.067
online and even in person who are almost like revolutionaries against ai they00:50:31.067 --> 00:50:32.667
think it's wicked and evil,00:50:32.907 --> 00:50:39.247
but I just saw a survey that Barna and Glue put out that I found really, really interesting.00:50:39.708 --> 00:50:47.328
And it basically showed that pastors and Christians in general have a slightly00:50:47.328 --> 00:50:54.508
more positive view of AI in terms of saying AI is making the world a better00:50:54.508 --> 00:50:56.388
place than the general population.00:50:56.648 --> 00:51:03.328
Now, at the same time, they're more likely to agree with the statement that00:51:03.328 --> 00:51:06.148
AI is a threat than the general population.00:51:06.148 --> 00:51:09.488
So I don't know how you can out of one side of your mouth say it's making the00:51:09.488 --> 00:51:12.428
world a better place and the other side you say it's a big threat.00:51:12.528 --> 00:51:15.828
But look, so many people are using AI right now.00:51:15.988 --> 00:51:17.488
I think in 10 years it is going to00:51:17.488 --> 00:51:22.048
be as ubiquitous and commonplace as the internet is, maybe even more so.00:51:22.248 --> 00:51:27.108
Dr. Ferguson, what are your thoughts on AI? How are you encountering it in the seminary?00:51:27.248 --> 00:51:31.848
Is it vexing your life that students are writing all their papers with AI?00:51:32.088 --> 00:51:33.528
What are your views here?00:51:33.821 --> 00:51:36.881
Oh, my goodness. Thank you. I love this topic, actually.00:51:37.401 --> 00:51:42.021
About a year and a half ago, I did my academic convocation. You know,00:51:42.101 --> 00:51:44.901
every semester, one of the faculty members gives a paper.00:51:45.281 --> 00:51:50.921
I saw that. Yeah. And so my academic convocation was on educating humans in the age of AI.00:51:51.381 --> 00:51:56.041
So I have lots of opinions and thoughts about this. And I am a huge AI user.00:51:56.341 --> 00:52:02.701
So full confession, I do use AI. But I promise you, I did not use AI to formulate00:52:02.701 --> 00:52:04.141
anything that I said today.00:52:06.141 --> 00:52:10.461
So, you know what's really interesting is because I studied a lot of online00:52:10.461 --> 00:52:15.441
education, I see so many patterns that are very similar as far as like this00:52:15.441 --> 00:52:17.661
reaction to a new technology.00:52:17.921 --> 00:52:22.541
So like when online education became more and more popular, there are these00:52:22.541 --> 00:52:26.441
two camps of like, it's the worst thing ever, it's going to ruin everything.00:52:26.701 --> 00:52:30.741
Or it's like the best thing ever, and it's going to be our savior of all things.00:52:30.881 --> 00:52:34.181
It's like always these two like polar opposites.00:52:34.281 --> 00:52:40.101
And I've always felt that neither are looking at it in quite the right way.00:52:40.301 --> 00:52:45.741
And that's very common in AI literature, even secular discussions about AI.00:52:46.041 --> 00:52:49.941
It's either going to be Armageddon or utopia, you know, either one,00:52:50.181 --> 00:52:51.721
maybe a little both somehow, I don't know.00:52:51.901 --> 00:52:55.701
But it's either going to be the end of humans as we know it,00:52:55.901 --> 00:52:58.281
or humans are going to basically enter into heaven.00:52:58.561 --> 00:53:01.261
Now because we're never going to have to do anything ever again.00:53:01.601 --> 00:53:07.621
And so I think what's important is that we actually take a little more time00:53:07.621 --> 00:53:11.181
and don't opt for one of those easy camps.00:53:11.341 --> 00:53:15.561
I truly think it's just going to take more work. In order to land at a truly00:53:15.561 --> 00:53:20.581
biblical perspective of AI, it's not going to be enough to just say no completely00:53:20.581 --> 00:53:24.161
to it or yes completely to it. That's the easy route either way.00:53:24.638 --> 00:53:26.578
I think if you decide no to AI00:53:26.578 --> 00:53:30.858
and you're just like, it's going to be Armageddon, let's try to stop it.00:53:30.998 --> 00:53:35.318
I just think you're in a fruitless endeavor. Like, I agree with you, Chase.00:53:35.618 --> 00:53:41.198
This is absolutely becoming inescapable and it's becoming integrated in all00:53:41.198 --> 00:53:44.978
of the tools that we've typically already adopted, that the whole, you know,00:53:45.358 --> 00:53:49.038
United States has already adopted and it's becoming integrated in all of these00:53:49.038 --> 00:53:50.698
things, in our phones and things like that.00:53:50.698 --> 00:53:55.138
So it's going to be, unless we're going to take the route of like a more Amish00:53:55.138 --> 00:54:00.078
kind of withdrawal, it's going to be very part of our culture.00:54:00.078 --> 00:54:05.018
So we have to do the hard work ethically to determine how we're going to engage,00:54:05.018 --> 00:54:08.258
if we should engage, why we should engage or why not.00:54:08.458 --> 00:54:13.698
And so I think what becomes very important in this conversation is our image00:54:13.698 --> 00:54:17.798
bearing nature and our role as the image of God.00:54:18.409 --> 00:54:23.989
And what are the things in this world that are only for humans?00:54:24.189 --> 00:54:26.549
What are those things that are only for humans?00:54:26.789 --> 00:54:32.589
A good example of this, like kind of analogy, is like I could not deploy my00:54:32.589 --> 00:54:35.149
AI robot to go on a date with my husband.00:54:35.509 --> 00:54:38.349
That doesn't work. It requires my personhood.00:54:39.089 --> 00:54:45.589
I, as a human person, need to engage with my husband as a human person.00:54:45.589 --> 00:54:49.589
Those are moments that are not replaceable by AI.00:54:49.849 --> 00:54:53.509
And the same is true with our relationship with God. I think it's one of the00:54:53.509 --> 00:55:00.389
biggest threats to Christianity in the age of AI is that it is so easy to get answers.00:55:00.469 --> 00:55:07.309
And we want a bullet point, easy to read. It takes us two seconds to get through it.00:55:07.429 --> 00:55:10.309
When reading the Word of God takes some effort.00:55:10.509 --> 00:55:14.109
It takes some discipline. It takes interpretation. it00:55:14.109 --> 00:55:17.349
takes understanding the biblical context it's harder than00:55:17.349 --> 00:55:20.309
going to ai and being like what should i do what should i do in this situation00:55:20.309 --> 00:55:24.909
yeah and i think it's going to be so tempting for us as christians to constantly00:55:24.909 --> 00:55:30.029
go to ai instead of going to god in prayer or instead of going to the word of00:55:30.029 --> 00:55:33.809
god and so there's going to be have to be this conscious understanding that00:55:33.809 --> 00:55:36.449
i as a human being as image bearer of God,00:55:36.709 --> 00:55:41.329
I'm created to know God through his word.00:55:41.469 --> 00:55:48.489
And I am created to commune with the living, real, most high God through prayer00:55:48.489 --> 00:55:51.189
and through doing his will in this world.00:55:51.209 --> 00:55:53.509
And I cannot do that.00:55:54.013 --> 00:55:59.433
In AI. Like AI is not the replacement for a real active living relationship00:55:59.433 --> 00:56:00.953
with the real living God.00:56:01.153 --> 00:56:04.933
AI is not the living God. And I almost think there's this analogy with like00:56:04.933 --> 00:56:09.133
idols, where like idolatry in the Old Testament, they, you know,00:56:09.273 --> 00:56:14.533
we hear in Isaiah where it says they don't speak and they don't hear. AI actually talks.00:56:14.873 --> 00:56:18.653
So it's really tempting to replace God.00:56:18.993 --> 00:56:22.313
And we don't say it that way. We wouldn't be like, oh, I worship AI.00:56:22.593 --> 00:56:24.793
No one is saying that they're worshiping AI.00:56:25.153 --> 00:56:30.273
But in an effect, in reality, functionally, we could be going to AI and depending00:56:30.273 --> 00:56:35.353
on AI for so much of what we do day to day that we're replacing our dependence of God.00:56:35.633 --> 00:56:39.993
So we need to think as Christians about our image-bearing nature,00:56:40.233 --> 00:56:46.673
our unique role and dignity and responsibility in this world to know God and00:56:46.673 --> 00:56:50.353
to make him known and then put AI in its right place.00:56:50.513 --> 00:56:53.333
But I do think AI can serve some of that.00:56:53.793 --> 00:56:58.813
Like, for instance, I think AI is so helpful to understand other worldviews00:56:58.813 --> 00:57:03.473
and like asking it questions about like, okay, what would someone from this00:57:03.473 --> 00:57:05.333
culture think about in this way?00:57:05.613 --> 00:57:12.293
And like, there's just so many helpful things like strategizing and ideas and00:57:12.293 --> 00:57:16.213
things that can come from development with AI, but it can never replace our00:57:16.213 --> 00:57:20.233
intimate connection with God and His work. So hopefully that's a snapshot.00:57:21.317 --> 00:57:26.757
That's a great perspective. I will add that to this, that if somebody is not00:57:26.757 --> 00:57:32.457
afraid of using Google to do research, they shouldn't be afraid of using AI.00:57:32.777 --> 00:57:39.617
AI is different than Google, and it can be profoundly effective at certain searches00:57:39.617 --> 00:57:41.297
if you use it at the right way.00:57:41.477 --> 00:57:47.917
And Dr. Ferguson has warned us against the dangers of leaning on AI for spiritual00:57:47.917 --> 00:57:50.297
guidance from God and for intimacy with God.00:57:50.437 --> 00:57:54.117
And I think that's a huge one. I'll add to that, on the other hand,00:57:54.257 --> 00:57:55.657
on the other side of the equation,00:57:55.857 --> 00:58:00.837
in AI, we've talked for years about the Turing test and the ability of an artificial00:58:00.837 --> 00:58:06.377
intelligence to fool a majority of humans that they are talking to a human.00:58:06.537 --> 00:58:09.837
And I think we're past that. And I think most researchers would agree.00:58:10.437 --> 00:58:13.577
We've passed that. The AI can pass as humans.00:58:13.797 --> 00:58:16.757
And in addition to the danger you're warning us about,00:58:17.077 --> 00:58:20.857
I would add to it, and this, I think is a significant fear as well,00:58:21.017 --> 00:58:27.717
is that people will rely on AI for deep spiritual conversations that they should00:58:27.717 --> 00:58:34.237
be having in the body of Christ, that it will become a replacement for intimacy in the church,00:58:34.717 --> 00:58:36.777
maybe even intimacy between a husband and a wife.00:58:36.937 --> 00:58:40.657
But AI doesn't disagree with you as much.00:58:40.777 --> 00:58:43.777
It doesn't challenge you as much. It doesn't confront you as much.00:58:43.777 --> 00:58:47.797
It doesn't know your deepest sins and desires and heart.00:58:47.917 --> 00:58:51.717
It knows a lot about you, but it can't know you as well as somebody else in00:58:51.717 --> 00:58:55.477
the body of Christ. It will not be iron sharpening iron, so to speak.00:58:56.137 --> 00:59:00.357
And even if you tell it, tell me all my weaknesses and criticisms and,00:59:00.357 --> 00:59:01.377
you know, tell me all these things.00:59:01.819 --> 00:59:07.039
Like you can you can make AI accommodate the weaknesses that you think are in00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:11.399
AI, like remove all of your praises and just give it to me straight.00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:14.499
Like you can craft AI to do that for you, which is kind of like,00:59:14.739 --> 00:59:16.719
OK, maybe if we just design it right.00:59:16.899 --> 00:59:22.419
But I think that the core is even if you can design AI to to effectively do00:59:22.419 --> 00:59:28.319
a lot of those things at the at the end of the day, AI is not real. It is not a real being.00:59:28.779 --> 00:59:35.719
We have a real living God who actually works in this world, who really exists,00:59:35.879 --> 00:59:40.399
who wants to know us, who is available to us and who's died to save us.00:59:40.499 --> 00:59:45.979
Like we have a God who is able to do far more than AI could ever do.00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:50.079
Like God can make a way for things to happen that AI could never do.00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:54.139
And I think it's going to be so tempting to try to think that AI can solve all00:59:54.139 --> 00:59:58.519
the problems when we have a real and living God who is actively at work through00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:04.619
our problems to do more than just solve problems. He's bringing about his kingdom in this world. Yeah.01:00:04.959 --> 01:00:05.359
Fantastic.01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:09.819
AI can't love either. It can't have feelings or emotions.01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:14.539
And we know that's true, but we sometimes do this thing.01:00:14.619 --> 01:00:19.659
My family kind of play around and ask questions to our AI just to be funny.01:00:19.659 --> 01:00:24.979
And so I asked her if she loved me and she said, I'm incapable of,01:00:25.099 --> 01:00:27.459
of, I haven't figured out human emotions yet.01:00:27.559 --> 01:00:30.699
And I think that's so really important though. It's, that was funny.01:00:31.184 --> 01:00:37.344
But it's also like a real reminder that emotions are meant for humans and God01:00:37.344 --> 01:00:42.084
to experience together. It's not something that can be replaced artificially. So true. So true.01:00:42.104 --> 01:00:45.564
Absolutely, Kathy. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation.01:00:45.564 --> 01:00:48.884
I have one more quick question before we close out.01:00:49.304 --> 01:00:52.824
Dr. Ferguson, I'm going to ask this of everybody. The question is going to be, what are you reading?01:00:53.064 --> 01:00:58.384
And Dr. Ferguson, I know you read smart people books like Jason Thacker's The01:00:58.384 --> 01:01:02.004
Age of AI and like Heart Deep Teaching and Ms.01:01:02.124 --> 01:01:05.224
Ortlund's Help, I'm Married to the Pastor. I know you read smart people books,01:01:05.244 --> 01:01:07.704
and maybe your answer is going to be a smart person book.01:01:07.844 --> 01:01:11.744
But if that's the book you read for fun, a smart person book, that's great.01:01:11.904 --> 01:01:15.644
But I'm going to ask, what are the books you're reading right now or listening01:01:15.644 --> 01:01:16.844
to? Because I count that.01:01:17.284 --> 01:01:19.724
What are the books right now you guys are listening to?01:01:20.204 --> 01:01:22.304
Fun might be too whimsical.01:01:23.644 --> 01:01:28.104
I read for fun, and I read for the good reasons too but what are you guys reading01:01:28.104 --> 01:01:35.324
for fun these days that enriches your soul that blesses you that is maybe a step above streaming so01:01:35.324 --> 01:01:39.704
Like are you talking about magic treehouse with my kids because that's active every night.01:01:39.704 --> 01:01:45.184
Those aren't bad books i enjoy some of those books with the kids some of them01:01:45.184 --> 01:01:48.524
are tedious and terrible but magic treehouse is pretty good we01:01:48.524 --> 01:01:52.904
Got some i got some variety for you chase it is not just smart people books01:01:52.904 --> 01:01:57.164
i don't even know we've got time for a lot of smart people books, but I'm looking around.01:01:57.364 --> 01:02:01.784
I've got some VBS materials over here that I've been reading very intently.01:02:03.044 --> 01:02:07.904
Magic Treehouse for sure at home. But I also have our biblical counseling.01:02:08.224 --> 01:02:11.744
Oh, it's backwards on the screen. But our biblical counseling professor recommended this one.01:02:11.884 --> 01:02:15.844
To me, it's called The Gospel for Disordered Lives by Robert Jones,01:02:16.004 --> 01:02:18.164
Kristen Kellen, and Rob Green.01:02:18.504 --> 01:02:24.064
And I'm really enjoying that as well. I really appreciate so much personal growth01:02:24.064 --> 01:02:27.644
from biblical counseling and just their dependence on the Word of God.01:02:27.664 --> 01:02:31.264
So I really enjoy reading biblical counseling books, but I'm enjoying that one a lot as well.01:02:31.833 --> 01:02:38.373
Fantastic. Ladies? I, too, am reading some curriculum books to revamp our stuff01:02:38.373 --> 01:02:44.313
through ACSI. And we're in the middle of doing a survey for our K-8 school.01:02:44.513 --> 01:02:46.753
So looking for stuff for that.01:02:46.973 --> 01:02:50.893
But also looking forward to a conference that I'm going to attend in Dallas,01:02:51.173 --> 01:02:55.753
the Outcomes Conference, in a couple weeks. So they always have some great books01:02:55.753 --> 01:02:58.793
for personal growth. I'm ready for some personal growth books.01:02:59.053 --> 01:03:03.533
All right. I'm actually rereading this book with a friend, but it's Instruments01:03:03.533 --> 01:03:05.913
in the Redeemer's Hand by Paul David Shredder.01:03:06.033 --> 01:03:11.533
And it's a great biblical counseling resource as well, but it's just been just a great reminder to,01:03:11.793 --> 01:03:15.753
in mentoring relationships, but in my own personal relationships.01:03:16.173 --> 01:03:21.253
Also, I think it just how I love others, my family, my church,01:03:21.513 --> 01:03:24.813
everything, and seeing things through a different lens has been really great.01:03:25.033 --> 01:03:28.853
And I'm also going through the See For Yourself.01:03:28.893 --> 01:03:33.893
It's a new kind of Bible study that came out by Kelly Needham.01:03:34.113 --> 01:03:36.853
Well, her husband wrote one too for men, but this one's for women.01:03:36.853 --> 01:03:44.933
And I'm reading it not as a Bible study, but as a way to help others to learn how to study the Bible.01:03:45.193 --> 01:03:47.153
And so that's, I mean, that's fun for me.01:03:47.613 --> 01:03:52.473
It's not as fun as maybe as Magic Treehouse, but it is really exciting.01:03:53.053 --> 01:03:56.493
But just as important, Kathy, just as important. It is very important.01:03:56.833 --> 01:04:01.173
It is very important. And it's not like a work for me. Like I just find those01:04:01.173 --> 01:04:02.833
kinds of things very interesting.01:04:03.213 --> 01:04:06.113
Awesome. Well, you guys are probably a lot more mature than me.01:04:06.113 --> 01:04:10.853
I feel pressured to say I'm reading a lot of the early church fathers right now, and that is true.01:04:11.013 --> 01:04:15.633
But what I really like to read is mystery books, and I plow through them.01:04:15.813 --> 01:04:20.533
And right now I'm reading the Mysterious Benedict Society series, which is for kids.01:04:20.653 --> 01:04:26.793
And I'm not a kid, but I enjoy it. And I'm also reading the Grantchester series by James Bruncey,01:04:26.893 --> 01:04:30.833
which is about a Church of England pastor called Sidney Chambers,01:04:30.853 --> 01:04:36.653
who is a detective, which is probably my fantasy to be a pastor and detective01:04:36.653 --> 01:04:39.153
on the side. It's a really interesting book.01:04:39.513 --> 01:04:43.433
Sidney Chambers is a good bit more liberal than I am, even though he believes01:04:43.433 --> 01:04:44.673
in the resurrection of Jesus.01:04:44.933 --> 01:04:51.193
But he constantly struggles with putting his wife and his child in the right01:04:51.193 --> 01:04:56.053
place of priorities in his life and ministry while he's working and solving01:04:56.053 --> 01:05:00.013
all these mysterious detective mystery kind of things and murders.01:05:00.053 --> 01:05:05.293
It's high-level writing, I think. I appreciate the struggle with prioritizing for a pastor.01:05:05.493 --> 01:05:10.033
I've thoroughly enjoyed myself, and this has been a very edifying conversation.01:05:10.273 --> 01:05:12.333
Thank you so much for your time.
