WEBVTT
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Do either of you.
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Guys have a parting shot for us, a last word as we exit?
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Backstage is the main stage.
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God. Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr.
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Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
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Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
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of making every church flourish.
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Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 15 of the Every Church Flourishing
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podcast by the Great Commission Association of California. We've got a great
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podcast for you today with some fascinating topics and guests and guest reviewers.
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We've got a review of a Scottish soda called Iron Brew, which is supposedly
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made with steel girders. And a great guest reviewer there.
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Also, a listener question from Robin F., who asks about the Apocrypha,
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those mysterious books that are in some Bibles and absent from others,
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and are the centerpiece for tons of conspiracy theories about the Church and the Bible.
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What is the Apocrypha? Should you be reading it? Why is it no longer in most
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Protestant Bibles? The truth is out there.
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Today we begin a multi-part series on the Apocrypha.
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By the way, what giant of the Reformation quoted a book from the Apocrypha and
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called the speaker and the namesake of that book a prophet? Well,
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we're going to find out today.
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Before that though, our main interview is with Dr. Chris Smith of the Great
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Commission Association, a former missionary to Spain and the current Mission
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Consultant with the GCA and President of the Great Commission Training Institution,
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which is an online training school that is very affordable for pastors and church leaders.
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And you can find out more on the GCTI at our website, gcasbc.org.
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That's gcasbc.org. Now, Dr.
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Mike Stewart, our co-host today, is the Senior Director of California's Great
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Commission Association, and he and I will talk to
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Dr.
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Chris Smith about front stage versus backstage ministry and also his favorite
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food from Spain and maybe most important of all, the difference between Spanish
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tortillas and Mexican tortillas.
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Our main focus today is on the roots that nobody sees versus the flower that
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draws attention, the front stage versus the backstage to continue the metaphor.
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If the flower isn't healthy or it browns or it falls off, as long as the roots
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are healthy, the plant will eventually be healthy again and that flower will grow again.
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But some flowers persist for a time without any roots whatsoever.
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They can look healthy for a time in a vase, but their life is limited because
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their roots for accessing living water are gone.
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Similarly, there are times in ministry where leaders and pastors can have a
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healthy-looking front stage ministry or flower of ministry, but the back stage
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or the roots of the ministry are sick.
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And in that case, it's inevitable that a collapse will happen at some point.
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Most leaders pay more attention to the front stage of ministry,
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that visible part of their ministry, the flower, so to speak.
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But we really should pay far greater attention to our roots,
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our abiding in the vine of Jesus, the things we do in the backstage,
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our reading of scripture, our prayer life, our devotional life.
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Now, a couple of upcoming episodes I want to tell you about.
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We've got a great review already recorded with Dr.
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Kristen Ferguson, the Vice President of Gateway Seminary, and on that interview,
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we talked to her about Christians and artificial intelligence,
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Church leader education, online education, women in ministry,
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and being a pastor's wife.
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Along those same lines, we're going to be interviewing Dr.
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Kathy Smith this week on Women in Ministry and Missions and Missional Complementarianism,
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as well as Pastor Humberto Hernandez and many other interesting guests coming up.
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So stay tuned. And now let's go to the interview where Dr.
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Mike Stewart and I discuss front stage versus backstage ministry with Dr. Chris Smith.
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So today we have the privilege of being joined by Dr.
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Chris Smith, who is with the Great Commission Association and has multiple roles there.
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He leads the training initiative for pastors and church leaders.
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Dr. Chris Smith, tell us a little bit about yourself and all of the multifaceted
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things you do with the Great Commission Association in California.
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I first came about eight years ago as a ministry director and connecting with
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our South Area churches, which is basically San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara.
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And I still do that. And it's that the role that I have now is more evolved
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to encompass many different things.
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And my official title is Mission Strategist. So coming along churches,
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helping them in many different ways.
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GCA, we do mission. We have unreached people groups that we are reaching.
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We do church planning. We do replanning.
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We evangelism, discipleship, leadership development.
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So, there are many different things that we do in coming alongside churches,
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and also part of that is being a pastor to pastors and a friend to pastors and
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helping and throw in that.
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Now I'm doing youth rallies as well, and so probably it'd be quicker to talk
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about what I'm not doing than what I am doing.
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But, no, it's great. I really enjoy it. I love it because you don't just sit
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around bored, right? Well, what am I going to do today?
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So there's always opportunity to be missional, to be encouraging,
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and to just be there with our churches and do ministry together.
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And it's a joy. It really is.
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Chris, before I jump in with my question, I would say that's one of the great
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blessings of being in associational ministry as opposed to, I'd say,
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larger scale ministries, a national level. and they do important work,
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but at the associational level, you actually get to know people.
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You actually, and over time, you've been here eight years.
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So you've been walking with brothers there and sisters in our churches for eight
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years. So you know when it's looking good and when something's a little bit off.
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There's a front stage of ministry when you're up front, and then there's the
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backstage, the back part of our ministry.
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So from your experience, the front stage of the public facing,
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this is what I look like. And then the backstage, this is what I look like when no one's looking.
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What are some things there you can tell pastors or from your experience that
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they need to be aware of those two dimensions and how to make sure they stay in balance?
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Yeah, I think one thing that comes to mind is John 15, just the importance of abiding in Christ.
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I was reading a book recently, and it talked about the three things in John
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15. Jesus, abide in me, when he says in verse 5, I am the vine,
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you are the branches. If you remain in me, then you are bare much fruit.
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Apart from me, you can do nothing.
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And then also the community, loving one another, where Jesus is saying,
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by this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another.
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And then the last thing, the last part of John 15 is the mission.
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Here's our witness to the world around us. Here's the, specifically,
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here's the challenge that you will face in mission, that the lost will hate
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you, they will hate the Father, they will hate Jesus.
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But you were chosen to testify. And so as we think about the front stage and
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the backstage of ministry in that order, in the book I was reading,
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it says the importance of the order, Jesus, community, and mission.
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So if we don't start with Jesus in our own ministry, then we're not going to
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be leading from the overflow.
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We're going to be really relying on past experience or education or knowledge
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and not from truly knowing God.
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Just going beyond knowing about God to really knowing Him personally and let
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that sustain us, drive us, fuel us.
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And I think that is the key because it is very easy to get overwhelmed with
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the many things that you have to do on the front stage and neglect the backstage of ministry.
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Amen to that. What book was that you were reading, Dr. Chris?
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Yeah, it's a book by Ray Ortlund and Sam Albury.
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It's called You're Not Crazy, Gospel Sanity for Weary Christians.
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And they talk about cultivating a gospel culture within the church.
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And the importance of that is within our own lives as well.
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And so within the church, but specifically within our own family and our own lives.
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Well, how would you review that book? How many Spurgeons out of five would you give it?
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Yeah, I mean, I really liked it. I was five. And so in my role,
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I get to drive around a lot.
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And so a lot of times I'll...
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I'll put on a book and listen to a book. And that was one of the ones that I was listening to.
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And that really struck me, you know, just the genuineness and also the importance
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of the priorities, right, of Jesus, community and mission.
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Because one of the things that he says is that if we neglect,
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if we kind of skip, we just go to mission and we neglect Jesus and we don't
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have community, then the mission is not going to be real.
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And it's people aren't going to believe the mission because if we're not truly
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loving each other, then, you know, the world's going to say, well, they're fake.
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And so just that important that those three and that order is really important.
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What would you say is harder for a pastor, the front stage ministry or the back stage ministry?
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Many times, I mean, it would depend on the pastor, right? And so sometimes there
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are very charismatic pastors who they thrive on the front state.
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I mean, they are the ones that can get the kind of the visionary leader that
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gets everybody going. So that would definitely be easier for them where the
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backstage might be more difficult.
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But I think for all of us, you know, we just have to work really hard in the backstage.
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We have to, because our job is to know the scriptures, we can go to the scriptures
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just to study so that we can teach and not for us. This is for me.
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And, you know, it might turn into a teaching. It might turn into a preaching, a sermon.
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But I'm doing this for me. This is in my relationship. Because before we were
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called to ministry, it was our relationship with God.
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And so that really has to be the focus for sure.
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I think that's a great question, Dr. Stewart. I will say
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When I started out in ministry, I was an extrovert, and at some point I flipped to an introvert,
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And so I'm really kind of an ambivert.
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But for my personality style over the vast majority of time in ministry, I have ADHD.
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Stillness is hard for me. Sitting still, all of that. I do not do it very well.
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But a few years ago, I think it was maybe right around the time of COVID,
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I, by the grace of God somehow developed the habit of walking and praying more
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and walking and listening to the scripture more.
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And if the answer to your question you asked to Dr.
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Stewart for me is backstage of ministry was always harder.
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And that's just because I've struggled so much to sit still.
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Also probably because I sinfully trust myself to get it done more than I should. As Dr.
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Chris mentioned, John 15.
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It's pretty much the theme verse of this podcast. The clear teaching of Jesus
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is apart from me, you can do nothing.
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So if you're a pastor and you're listening to this and you're like,
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You know, I'm not great at.
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The backstage of ministry, that is for all of us, it's a fatality.
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It's a condition that will always disruption.
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We have to invest in that part of it.
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Now, for me, I always liked the front stage because I knew when it was going
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to happen. It was every Sunday.
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And so I could get ready for that. But the backstage was hidden from people
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And it was hidden from me as far as when was I going to get that done?
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And everything else got in the way of that.
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I was at a retreat a couple weeks ago, and it was really calling pastors back
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to a sense of relying on the presence of God.
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There were two truths, and I think they'd be great right here for a pastor to
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hear them, is that there are two great truths about the presence of God.
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And one is, the first truth is, is that God desires a daily,
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unbroken, personal relationship with us, but we must cooperate.
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He desires every unbroken. The second is, our greatest need is God's presence,
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and God's great desire is our presence. And so I have to show up in the garden
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and be ready for the cool of the day.
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And so I began praying in my life about three years ago. I felt like I'm not,
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I am doing things on the outside, but on the inside, I'm not where I need to be with God.
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And about three years ago, I just began praying for a desire,
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a greater desire to spend more time with God, because that will never come from my flesh.
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It has to come from the Holy Spirit working in me and moving me to there.
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And God will answer, hear that prayer. That delights God. But I hadn't prayed that.
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You know, move me to desire being your presence more. And so,
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and I will just tell pastors listening, it is the richer part of ministry.
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It is the
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Richer part of ministry. It's the part of ministry that you will not be discouraged in.
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God's not a, he's not really, doesn't really need to use a lot of harsh words
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or discouragement for us.
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The Holy Spirit is working in us all the time.
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But that backstage is a beautiful place, and many times it's really, really underbuilt.
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And that's, you know, for us in ministry, we have a great position to be able
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to develop that. That's my story.
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I would add to that specifically our private prayer life.
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You know, what is our private prayer life, and how are we drawing close to God,
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and what does that look like on a day-to-day basis and not out of obligation,
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but out of seeking Him, seeking dependence on Him,
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being renewed by Him each and every day and it be real.
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So I think that continual abiding, because no one sees that,
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no one's going to see our private prayer life.
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But if I've seen in my own life, when my prayer life is on point,
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then when I go to do a teaching or when the front stay, It's another level, right?
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It's just another level that you're able to get to because you are depending
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on God and not just depending on God.
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Yourself.
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Amen to that.
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So something you said a few minutes ago, Dr. Chris, was about maybe the dangers
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of mixing your ministry preparation with your devotional life.
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Years ago, long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I had a pastor who
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was one of the best Bible teachers I've ever sat under.
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And he was just hugely influential in my life with his preaching.
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One time I found myself in his office and I asked him about his Bible study, his quiet time.
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And his answer kind of stuck out to me as strange.
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I said, I think I just said something simple like, what are you studying in the Bible here lately?
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And he said, well, my devotional time is all about getting ready to preach on Sunday morning.
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Even as a young guy that's kind of clueless, I was like, that's weird.
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I wonder if that's the way it is for most pastors.
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So I guess I'll ask you guys the question. Do you see a danger in that practice?
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And follow up, how do you recognize when ministry and preparation have become
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substitutes in a sense for devotion, abiding, private prayer, et cetera?
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Yeah, I think that is, that's not unusual because I think
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When I even ask people about, you know, their prayer life, tell me about their
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prayer life, and people on staff or whatever, they will tell me,
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well, I pray when I drive to work.
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Well, there's not a lot of people in the New Testament driving to work while they're praying.
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But I call that distracted prayer. I said, it's wonderful you want to have your
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mind set on God, and that's good. But it's not deep prayer.
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Deep prayer is you go into the room, you close the door, and you're trying to
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get into the presence of God. But I think for the pastor, studying God's word
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and asking him for a message for God's people, that's exciting.
00:17:03.042 --> 00:17:05.142
And it wells up in you. And, you know, that's what you think.
00:17:05.242 --> 00:17:08.462
You're like Chris said, you want to teach. You want to overflow.
00:17:08.722 --> 00:17:12.462
But I would say do things before the Lord just to know him.
00:17:12.622 --> 00:17:17.082
That's what Chris said, just to know him better. The Holy Spirit inspired the
00:17:17.082 --> 00:17:19.682
scripture and the Holy Spirit lives within us.
00:17:19.822 --> 00:17:24.802
And Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things that relate to faith.
00:17:24.802 --> 00:17:31.122
So we've got a pretty great resource in God's Word just to read it and be amazed
00:17:31.122 --> 00:17:35.542
at the God who is and was and is to come.
00:17:35.702 --> 00:17:38.822
So I would just tell pastor, don't fall into that trap.
00:17:39.042 --> 00:17:43.242
There's enough of time and there's enough of God for him to do a personal work
00:17:43.242 --> 00:17:47.562
inside of you and then do a preaching work inside of you for the congregation.
00:17:47.682 --> 00:17:50.182
And for me, they both feed each other.
00:17:50.322 --> 00:17:51.222
Absolutely, yes.
00:17:51.342 --> 00:17:51.602
They do.
00:17:52.422 --> 00:17:55.002
They do. They feed each other. And there's going to be crossover.
00:17:55.182 --> 00:17:57.122
There should be crossover. There has to be crossover.
00:17:57.382 --> 00:18:01.462
But I would say, so your question is, you know, if it's only to,
00:18:01.822 --> 00:18:06.742
if you're only preparing and that's your, that's it, that's all you have,
00:18:06.822 --> 00:18:08.122
I don't think that's enough.
00:18:08.322 --> 00:18:13.982
I mean, I think that, you know, it's going to be, you're going to fall short.
00:18:14.102 --> 00:18:18.622
But of course, as we are preparing, God is working on us, right?
00:18:18.702 --> 00:18:20.262
The best messages that we preach.
00:18:20.620 --> 00:18:24.080
And teach are the ones that he's working in on us.
00:18:24.340 --> 00:18:27.700
And I was listening to, I think it was a podcast by John Piper,
00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.880
and he was talking about, kind of similar to this question, he said that one
00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:37.460
of the things that he does is he will read someone else to get his mind and
00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:40.200
his heart right before he goes to the scripture.
00:18:40.300 --> 00:18:43.480
And I thought that was very interesting, like he'll read a book or just a portion
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.120
of it, just to get him thinking in a different direction.
00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:52.380
Someone who he respects and admires and knows, has thought deeply about God.
00:18:52.560 --> 00:18:59.060
And so I've been doing that and it's been helpful in that just to listen to
00:18:59.060 --> 00:19:05.320
or hear from respected leaders, pastors, and let that kind of direct you
00:19:05.532 --> 00:19:10.792
For pastors and this topic of your personal ministry, your backstage ministry of the Lord.
00:19:10.952 --> 00:19:15.592
This is a place where I think you need to tell the congregation how to do this.
00:19:15.952 --> 00:19:20.172
You can't assume that new believers or believers who are coming from no church
00:19:20.172 --> 00:19:23.452
life, you have to really tell them, this is how I read God's Word.
00:19:23.592 --> 00:19:28.472
I think the challenge with Chase, the story of your pastor, his people could
00:19:28.472 --> 00:19:31.252
not follow his example because they're not studying for a sermon.
00:19:31.392 --> 00:19:37.592
So how do I read the Bible, pastor, tell me how you do it. And Paul said, follow my example.
00:19:37.772 --> 00:19:40.272
Well, you have to tell them. And if you're not proud of what you're going to
00:19:40.272 --> 00:19:43.872
tell them, that could be a clue that you might need to grow in that area.
00:19:43.972 --> 00:19:47.712
But tell them, here's how I read the Bible. Here's where I put it into my life.
00:19:47.992 --> 00:19:50.792
Lay that out. Tell them how you pray, how you pray for them,
00:19:50.952 --> 00:19:53.372
how you pray for your family. When do you do that?
00:19:53.632 --> 00:19:57.072
Everything you can lay out for them that's more practical for them because the
00:19:57.072 --> 00:19:59.552
spiritual world for them is not clear.
00:19:59.852 --> 00:20:04.212
And so pastors not only should make it clear in doctrine, but clear in practice.
00:20:04.412 --> 00:20:08.372
Here's what I do. We're not perfect. This is what fits me, but I encourage it.
00:20:08.512 --> 00:20:11.892
And if you don't have a plan, then my plan's better than your no plan.
00:20:12.092 --> 00:20:15.952
But, you know, especially just, and introduce them to resources that they can
00:20:15.952 --> 00:20:19.172
do because social media now, they can get an app for everything,
00:20:19.332 --> 00:20:20.292
but they don't know which one.
00:20:20.452 --> 00:20:25.352
So you can really help them by just being clear with them to build the backstage of their own life.
00:20:25.352 --> 00:20:28.552
I completely agree with that. There's going to be somebody listening to this
00:20:28.552 --> 00:20:33.392
that is a pastor or denominational leader or a leader in a church, a deacon or whatever,
00:20:33.532 --> 00:20:36.472
And they are maybe convicted.
00:20:36.472 --> 00:20:42.452
But looking at their life practice, they realize that they have underprioritized
00:20:42.452 --> 00:20:44.232
the backstage of ministry.
00:20:44.452 --> 00:20:50.452
So what can we say to that leader who's listening to this right now, who's done that?
00:20:50.612 --> 00:20:56.332
What can we say to encourage them and to help them reorder that aspect of their life?
00:20:56.467 --> 00:21:01.887
Yeah, I would say start small and build, you know, start with your private prayer life.
00:21:02.107 --> 00:21:05.587
I think that is going to be the foundation because if you're seeking God,
00:21:05.767 --> 00:21:08.687
you're longing for God, and you're asking, Dr.
00:21:08.807 --> 00:21:13.447
Mike talked about that desire in his own story. He asked for that desire.
00:21:13.747 --> 00:21:17.327
And if you're doing that, then the other things will come.
00:21:17.507 --> 00:21:22.127
And if it might be something practical when you first get up and then when you
00:21:22.127 --> 00:21:27.207
go to bed and something short that you can expand upon. And so I would start
00:21:27.207 --> 00:21:32.067
small and then build from there and make it as much as you can.
00:21:32.327 --> 00:21:35.107
Be authentic, be real. Sometimes you're not going to feel it.
00:21:35.167 --> 00:21:40.187
Sometimes it's just going to feel like a routine. But I think that we continue
00:21:40.187 --> 00:21:45.087
to long for that relationship because it's like any relationship, right?
00:21:45.227 --> 00:21:50.027
If we have a relationship with our spouse or a relationship with a good friend,
00:21:50.087 --> 00:21:55.427
we're going to want to spend time with that person. And so that's the prayers
00:21:55.427 --> 00:22:00.007
that God would change our want to, not just our actions, but our desire.
00:22:00.187 --> 00:22:01.507
Dr. Stewart, any thoughts on that?
00:22:01.707 --> 00:22:05.747
Yes, I would say that, you know, something is substituting for your
00:22:05.883 --> 00:22:10.443
communion with God. Something is. And there might be things in your life that
00:22:10.443 --> 00:22:13.723
need to be dealt with or whatever, but in trying to walk away from things,
00:22:13.723 --> 00:22:17.503
even inside your ministry world, that are not good for you or not good for your family,
00:22:17.643 --> 00:22:23.103
you have to replace that with something that is more powerful than what's hindering
00:22:23.103 --> 00:22:24.863
you. And that is time with God.
00:22:25.003 --> 00:22:30.423
For me, you know, I just seek His kingdom first is kind of a thing that always runs in my mind.
00:22:30.563 --> 00:22:33.903
But for me, when I get up in the morning, I choose not to look at my phone.
00:22:34.023 --> 00:22:38.223
I choose not to look at what's happened into the world, I choose to go and get my Bible.
00:22:38.443 --> 00:22:42.863
For me, I sit down and read my Bible, and I have a notebook beside it.
00:22:42.963 --> 00:22:44.543
I'm just saying this for practical reasons.
00:22:44.663 --> 00:22:48.543
And if any verse, and I don't write copious notes, and I don't write out prayers,
00:22:48.603 --> 00:22:50.783
other people do that, that's not helpful for me.
00:22:50.923 --> 00:22:55.683
But for me, what's helpful is I read. If there is a verse that really grabs
00:22:55.683 --> 00:22:59.383
my heart, or that's really important, then I'll sit there and I'll write that
00:22:59.383 --> 00:23:02.863
out by hand, and just write it out of hand, then I'll meditate on that.
00:23:03.023 --> 00:23:06.803
And that's kind of my practice to make sure that God's Word is getting into
00:23:06.803 --> 00:23:09.723
me first. I'll just say, you know, pray for the desire.
00:23:09.923 --> 00:23:12.643
If there's things blocking your walk, if there's things inside,
00:23:12.703 --> 00:23:16.603
you have secret things, you can only, the power will come in your life as you
00:23:16.603 --> 00:23:18.803
replace those things with God's presence.
00:23:19.043 --> 00:23:24.663
And as I say, go back to that. God is always wanting a daily unbroken relationship with you.
00:23:24.843 --> 00:23:28.543
He knows that we're not perfect. And even when we haven't been perfect,
00:23:28.783 --> 00:23:32.223
still come to the Father and keep your account short with Him.
00:23:32.463 --> 00:23:38.703
Tell Him what's happened. And I just think we're under such a perfectionist grind in ministry.
00:23:39.023 --> 00:23:43.403
We can never, you know, we only hit a triple. We were supposed to hit a home run.
00:23:43.763 --> 00:23:47.683
You know, the enemy is very, very smart. He's got us always worried about what
00:23:47.683 --> 00:23:50.423
we can't do. But God knows us, loves us.
00:23:50.583 --> 00:23:55.523
And as we're in front of Him, He will work His work. He doesn't want us to do
00:23:55.523 --> 00:23:58.043
it by ourselves. Talking about, you know, don't do it alone.
00:23:58.223 --> 00:24:01.723
This is essentially, don't do ministry on your own.
00:24:01.903 --> 00:24:05.063
Do it in front of the Lord, and He will fill you. Jesus said,
00:24:05.203 --> 00:24:08.723
I like this, and Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. But Jesus also says,
00:24:08.918 --> 00:24:14.818
with God, all things are possible. That's the whole ministry summed up. With me, everything.
00:24:15.158 --> 00:24:18.298
Without me, nothing. So I'm going for everything.
00:24:18.498 --> 00:24:21.238
That's what I'd like to go for. And I don't get there perfectly.
00:24:21.358 --> 00:24:24.378
Nobody gets there perfectly. But just think of our pastors, you know,
00:24:24.438 --> 00:24:29.418
would return and be in the presence of God as the great dream and desire of their life.
00:24:29.658 --> 00:24:32.218
Then everything else will flow out of it. Great truth.
00:24:32.318 --> 00:24:35.398
Absolutely. Well, Dr. Chris, you were a missionary.
00:24:35.598 --> 00:24:40.798
That had to have been fascinating. So what was your favorite thing about being
00:24:40.798 --> 00:24:45.358
a missionary in Spain and the hardest thing about being a missionary in Spain?
00:24:45.498 --> 00:24:48.798
Yeah, we were, I knew missionaries there for about 10 years.
00:24:48.898 --> 00:24:51.438
And my favorite thing is the people.
00:24:51.658 --> 00:24:56.278
We were also missionaries. I was in Peru as a single guy before we got married.
00:24:56.278 --> 00:24:58.558
And then we were in Guatemala as well.
00:24:58.798 --> 00:25:05.038
But the people, that's my favorite thing is just getting to know other cultures, their differences,
00:25:05.338 --> 00:25:09.018
the way they do things, the way they see things, the way they see the world,
00:25:09.018 --> 00:25:14.938
and just the great part of that specific culture. That's my favorite thing.
00:25:15.158 --> 00:25:18.958
As I've traveled the different countries of the world,
00:25:19.198 --> 00:25:24.818
and especially believers in how they worship God and being able to worship God
00:25:24.818 --> 00:25:31.638
in another language and just see that expression is pretty amazing because you see your own self.
00:25:31.778 --> 00:25:36.838
When you see that culture, you see your own self and your own limitations and your own culture.
00:25:37.118 --> 00:25:43.198
And so that's probably my favorite thing. My least favorite thing is one of
00:25:43.198 --> 00:25:45.038
the least favorite things, I guess,
00:25:45.258 --> 00:25:52.618
is just the feeling of what we're talking about, of you're kind of in this by yourself.
00:25:52.898 --> 00:25:56.518
And, you know, Lone Ranger missionaries don't work well.
00:25:56.658 --> 00:26:02.838
And so we operated as a team, but when you're in a pioneer area and a
00:26:02.994 --> 00:26:05.954
unreached people group, it's very difficult.
00:26:06.314 --> 00:26:12.754
And so you're doing ministry cross-culturally. You're in a second language that's not your own.
00:26:12.834 --> 00:26:17.854
And so I say for me that that was a struggle or a difficulty.
00:26:17.854 --> 00:26:22.774
I remember we would come on stateside assignment and before we went back,
00:26:22.854 --> 00:26:25.694
I remember praying to God, God, I'm going to go back to Spain.
00:26:25.874 --> 00:26:31.534
We're going back, but I don't want to do this by myself. I need team members. I need people.
00:26:31.834 --> 00:26:35.494
And God granted of that request. We've had great team members,
00:26:35.734 --> 00:26:39.394
not only the IMB, but other Great Commission Christians and other believers
00:26:39.394 --> 00:26:42.134
that were in the area, other churches.
00:26:42.494 --> 00:26:49.794
But it is a blessing to be able to serve God in that way and to be able to see
00:26:49.794 --> 00:26:54.514
what He can do when you're not and you're out of your comfort zone,
00:26:54.694 --> 00:26:59.114
just to see what the great and mighty things that He can do when we're We're
00:26:59.114 --> 00:27:02.554
outside of our own culture and the things that are familiar to us.
00:27:02.754 --> 00:27:06.474
Chris, can I ask you a question? This is very important. So I want you to think
00:27:06.474 --> 00:27:09.974
about it. So you said Peru, Guatemala, and Spain, right?
00:27:10.154 --> 00:27:13.274
Where did you feel like you got the best tan?
00:27:13.514 --> 00:27:18.594
You look like you work on your tan a great deal. Where was the best tanning place that you served?
00:27:18.734 --> 00:27:23.354
Probably Spain. I mean, it's a very sunny country. So lots of beaches.
00:27:23.414 --> 00:27:27.914
It's surrounded by water. pretty much the whole country, except that little
00:27:27.914 --> 00:27:31.194
part up there in the north. But yeah, I would say Spain.
00:27:31.674 --> 00:27:33.294
That's a very good question.
00:27:33.294 --> 00:27:36.554
That's where you spend a lot of time on the beach working on that tan we see right now.
00:27:36.874 --> 00:27:39.894
That's right. That's right. That's right. It's been a while.
00:27:39.914 --> 00:27:40.994
That's why I'm a little white.
00:27:41.281 --> 00:27:44.121
Well, suntans are obviously very important to Dr. Stewart.
00:27:44.321 --> 00:27:47.821
The thing that's very important to me is food. So I'm going to ask Dr.
00:27:47.941 --> 00:27:51.441
Smith, where was the best food out of all of those places?
00:27:51.441 --> 00:27:55.861
I would say Spain. We were there the longest, so that's really where we have
00:27:55.861 --> 00:27:57.541
the deep relationships.
00:27:57.921 --> 00:28:02.301
And they have paella, which is kind of one of their signature foods.
00:28:02.301 --> 00:28:08.401
And it's a mixture of rice and they put different mariscos is what they call
00:28:08.401 --> 00:28:11.621
them, which is kind of the seafood or you can put different things in there.
00:28:11.621 --> 00:28:13.801
And gazpacho is another one.
00:28:13.981 --> 00:28:17.101
It's kind of a soup that's cold.
00:28:17.341 --> 00:28:21.281
It's a vegetable soup that's cold. And they have tortillas, but they're not
00:28:21.281 --> 00:28:23.701
tortillas like you're thinking of, like Mexican tortillas.
00:28:23.861 --> 00:28:29.001
It's like an omelet with potatoes in it. And those are called tortillas de patatas.
00:28:29.341 --> 00:28:33.441
And so those are all, those are just three, but there are so many.
00:28:33.581 --> 00:28:37.581
They have a lot of seafood. I grew up in Florida, and so I love seafood.
00:28:37.581 --> 00:28:43.661
And they have a lot of great seafood, cheeses, and then the Iberian ham that
00:28:43.661 --> 00:28:45.521
they have is really good.
00:28:45.641 --> 00:28:47.821
And so, yeah, lots of good food to eat.
00:28:48.001 --> 00:28:51.661
Well, I made the mistake of not eating lunch yet, so now I'm virtually starving.
00:28:51.941 --> 00:28:54.541
Thank you for that. Do either of you guys have a parting.
00:28:54.541 --> 00:28:57.061
Shot for us, a last word as we exit?
00:28:57.361 --> 00:28:59.181
Backstage is the main stage.
00:28:59.321 --> 00:29:04.841
That's good. Yeah, I think that, you know, that we would pray to God that he
00:29:04.841 --> 00:29:11.101
would change our hearts and that we do the work on our heart and that that's
00:29:11.101 --> 00:29:15.001
gonna just change our ministry so, so much.
00:29:15.321 --> 00:29:19.601
And so our own heart work and to be diligent and leading ourself,
00:29:19.861 --> 00:29:24.921
leading our family and leading the church, be diligent in leading yourself, leading your family.
00:29:25.101 --> 00:29:25.521
Fantastic.
00:29:25.941 --> 00:29:30.221
There was so much good meat on the bone in this episode on abiding,
00:29:30.521 --> 00:29:32.661
on prioritizing the backstage.
00:29:32.661 --> 00:29:37.821
On the importance of being rooted and grounded in Christ before we do any sort
00:29:37.821 --> 00:29:39.781
of fruitful ministry with people.
00:29:40.061 --> 00:29:44.621
So Dr. Smith, thank you for your time, for your service, for your multifaceted
00:29:44.621 --> 00:29:49.961
ministry that you do down there in Southern California or almost Southern California.
00:29:50.101 --> 00:29:54.801
Well, thank you for that, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Smith. Those were some great conversations
00:29:54.801 --> 00:30:01.601
on the importance of abiding on a deep relationship with Jesus to fuel our ministry.
00:30:01.601 --> 00:30:05.561
And if we're not paying attention to that backstage, then eventually the front
00:30:05.561 --> 00:30:07.061
stage is going to collapse.
00:30:07.341 --> 00:30:12.821
Well, let's transition from that most important topic to a topic that's only
00:30:12.821 --> 00:30:17.121
a tiny bit less important, and that is excellent sodas.
00:30:17.121 --> 00:30:22.661
And today, we've got a really fun one to review and a great guest host to review it with.
00:30:22.881 --> 00:30:28.021
This week, my co-host, Pastor Christopher Cole, is out with the T-virus.
00:30:28.381 --> 00:30:33.161
Hope he doesn't turn into a zombie. And I had to call in a ringer to help me.
00:30:33.361 --> 00:30:36.261
So, ringer, introduce yourself. Hello, I'm JC.
00:30:36.601 --> 00:30:39.941
I am an applied theology student at California Baptist University.
00:30:40.241 --> 00:30:44.621
I've been studying there for about two years in hopes to pursue pastoral ministry.
00:30:44.621 --> 00:30:47.561
And do we know each other before today's podcast?
00:30:47.861 --> 00:30:53.021
We certainly do. I've known you for about 22 years, ever since I was born, dad.
00:30:53.321 --> 00:30:58.161
So it's nice to be on this podcast. Story checks out. This is my son, JC. So today...
00:30:58.647 --> 00:31:04.747
We are reviewing Iron Brew, which is Scotland's national beverage.
00:31:04.967 --> 00:31:07.887
What's the first thing you notice about this beverage, son?
00:31:08.147 --> 00:31:12.507
I've got to say the first thing that stood out to me was it had 62 calories.
00:31:12.827 --> 00:31:16.547
I don't know why that was interesting, but that definitely stuck out.
00:31:16.807 --> 00:31:19.887
62 calories. I'll tell you the first thing I noticed, but I'm not going to tell
00:31:19.887 --> 00:31:23.427
you yet. First, I'm going to tell you three facts about Iron Brew.
00:31:23.767 --> 00:31:26.747
Pretty much every country in the world except Scotland, Iceland,
00:31:26.967 --> 00:31:31.007
Peru, and the Middle East Coca-Cola is the best-selling soft drink.
00:31:31.227 --> 00:31:34.487
But in Scotland, it's this guy. It's Iron Brew.
00:31:34.887 --> 00:31:40.087
Second fact, Iron Brew's hook or advertising thing that they use to get people
00:31:40.087 --> 00:31:43.547
to drink it is made in Scotland from girders.
00:31:43.667 --> 00:31:47.927
It's not made from girders, but it really does have iron added.
00:31:48.267 --> 00:31:49.247
Which I'm not
00:31:49.247 --> 00:31:55.587
Sure is a good thing for a soda. When I think refreshing, I don't think girders. And the last thing.
00:31:55.587 --> 00:31:56.567
Is that the
00:31:56.567 --> 00:32:03.407
Literal world's largest horse once worked for Iron Brew and delivered it around back in the day.
00:32:03.567 --> 00:32:05.887
It was a Clydesdale named Carnera.
00:32:06.107 --> 00:32:10.567
He was 19 hands tall, which is like six foot six, and he weighed.
00:32:10.567 --> 00:32:12.047
Over a ton. And that was
00:32:12.047 --> 00:32:16.407
The biggest horse in the world in the 1930s. Okay, well, let's give it a shot.
00:32:16.527 --> 00:32:19.007
I always smell it first, which is weird, but let's see.
00:32:19.167 --> 00:32:22.347
So you said it's got iron in it? It's got iron in it. Okay.
00:32:22.487 --> 00:32:26.187
I'm getting a little tutti frutti, bubble gummy kind of smell.
00:32:26.307 --> 00:32:27.727
I don't know. Let's try it. Okay.
00:32:27.947 --> 00:32:33.287
I've never tasted a soda with this flavor before. It's definitely citrusy. What do you think.
00:32:33.387 --> 00:32:33.627
JC?
00:32:34.007 --> 00:32:39.447
That's nice. It's refreshing. It's got a cool, natural, orangey kind of taste.
00:32:39.667 --> 00:32:44.027
I don't know if the color is kind of throwing me off, but it's definitely pretty good. It's appealing.
00:32:44.267 --> 00:32:48.447
I like it so far. I'm going to go back for another one. It does not taste like
00:32:48.447 --> 00:32:53.367
Sunkist. It looks like Sunkist, but it doesn't taste like Sunkist. Is that...
00:32:53.489 --> 00:32:54.069
There's a little,
00:32:54.169 --> 00:32:58.089
Definitely a little cream soda or bubblegum or orange.
00:32:58.389 --> 00:33:02.209
It's got a complex flavor. And look, I don't know if this is my imagination,
00:33:02.209 --> 00:33:04.449
but I feel like I can taste the girder.
00:33:04.629 --> 00:33:08.349
I feel like there's a little bit of a metallic aftertaste.
00:33:08.489 --> 00:33:12.989
Can you taste it or am I just crazy? Yeah, no, I definitely got that kind of metallic-y taste.
00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:17.589
Almost like it kind of just went through metal before it was in the can. Yeah.
00:33:17.849 --> 00:33:20.929
So maybe this is good for you if you got iron poor blood. By.
00:33:20.929 --> 00:33:21.489
The way, thank
00:33:21.489 --> 00:33:27.209
You to Every Church Flourishing listener, Lonnie, who may or may not be Scottish,
00:33:27.409 --> 00:33:29.809
but he provided this beverage for us to sample.
00:33:30.029 --> 00:33:37.569
And I think I'm going to give this a solid four out of five Spurgeon.
00:33:37.749 --> 00:33:42.269
I would drink it. It's good. I just would love to know if I would detect that
00:33:42.269 --> 00:33:46.629
aftertaste if I didn't know about the girders and the iron. What will you.
00:33:46.629 --> 00:33:48.149
Give it out of five Spurgeons,
00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:51.949
JC? see. Honestly, I've got to give it a little bit higher on that.
00:33:52.129 --> 00:33:57.089
I like the aftertaste and I'm not noticing it too much. It's cool. It's nice.
00:33:57.389 --> 00:34:02.149
I definitely think I would get this on a regular day of just studying and working on some schools.
00:34:02.349 --> 00:34:05.709
So I'd give it about 4.4 Spursions.
00:34:06.029 --> 00:34:09.129
4.4. Wow. You know what the only thing that keeps me from going higher?
00:34:09.309 --> 00:34:13.049
Something you haven't noticed? It's the color. Huh. Orange and blue.
00:34:13.649 --> 00:34:18.769
Yeah. No. Yeah. Roll Tide. Roll Tide. Come on. But I guess we can forgive the
00:34:18.769 --> 00:34:20.129
Scots for that combination.
00:34:21.209 --> 00:34:24.449
Tasty Brew. Hey, before I go, JC, let me ask you a question.
00:34:24.689 --> 00:34:25.909
Sure. In your studies
00:34:25.909 --> 00:34:30.389
As a bat student at Cal Baptist, how much have you talked about the Apocrypha?
00:34:30.749 --> 00:34:34.789
Man, we haven't talked too much about the Apocrypha. It's certainly come up
00:34:34.789 --> 00:34:36.049
in a couple of conversations.
00:34:36.449 --> 00:34:40.169
We've talked a little bit about the book of Enoch. Other than that,
00:34:40.309 --> 00:34:41.929
we haven't gone too much into that.
00:34:42.129 --> 00:34:45.149
Well, I think you're like most Protestants in that. And if you,
00:34:46.602 --> 00:34:52.402
you're going to find out more and more about the Apocrypha than you might have ever known before.
00:34:52.582 --> 00:34:57.162
All right, now that our thirst is sated for the time being, and we still got
00:34:57.162 --> 00:35:00.042
that weird taste in our mouth from our Scottish brew friends,
00:35:00.742 --> 00:35:03.282
let's get into the Apocrypha.
00:35:03.582 --> 00:35:07.702
Allow me to read for you a passage from the King James Version of the Bible
00:35:07.702 --> 00:35:10.302
with slightly modernized language.00:35:10.882 --> 00:35:17.022
Making a gathering, he sent 12,000 drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice00:35:17.022 --> 00:35:24.862
to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.00:35:25.242 --> 00:35:30.102
For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again,00:35:30.382 --> 00:35:34.922
it would have seemed superfluous to pray for the dead.00:35:35.482 --> 00:35:40.322
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness had00:35:40.322 --> 00:35:42.422
great grace laid up for them,00:35:42.866 --> 00:35:52.506
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.00:35:52.706 --> 00:35:56.906
So if I was being a little tongue-in-cheek, a little deceptive,00:35:57.046 --> 00:36:02.666
a little provocative, I could tell you with some level of accuracy that the00:36:02.666 --> 00:36:06.546
passage I just read was indeed from the King James Version of the Bible.00:36:06.546 --> 00:36:10.026
And I would be, strictly speaking, telling the truth.00:36:10.026 --> 00:36:14.766
And you, if you are a Bible scholar or a preacher or a teacher who knows the00:36:14.766 --> 00:36:16.946
word well, you might be puzzled,00:36:17.146 --> 00:36:22.226
scratch your head, or outright call me a liar, thinking, with great justification,00:36:22.226 --> 00:36:28.286
I might add, that the Bible doesn't teach that it is holy and wholesome to pray for the dead.00:36:28.286 --> 00:36:33.126
And you would be right, too, in a sense. So what gives?00:36:33.406 --> 00:36:39.906
Well, here's the solution to the riddle. The passage I just read to you is from 2 Maccabees 12,00:36:40.306 --> 00:36:45.386
43-46, and whether or not that passage is in the Bible, so to speak,00:36:45.406 --> 00:36:50.126
is a debate that is almost 2,000 years old. But what I said is true.00:36:50.306 --> 00:36:55.886
The book of 2 Maccabees, and 1 Maccabees for that matter, is indeed in the first00:36:55.886 --> 00:37:02.446
edition of the King James Bible, the original 1611 version, and was in many, if not most,00:37:02.646 --> 00:37:08.886
versions of the KJV for almost 200 years or so before it was officially removed00:37:08.886 --> 00:37:12.666
from pretty much every version of the King James in the 1800s.00:37:12.786 --> 00:37:14.806
So what is the Apocrypha?00:37:15.293 --> 00:37:19.313
If you've ever picked up a Catholic Bible and noticed it has more books than00:37:19.313 --> 00:37:23.013
the one in the pew at your Baptist church, you've encountered the Apocrypha.00:37:23.233 --> 00:37:28.453
That word comes from a Greek word, apocryphos, which means hidden or concealed.00:37:28.713 --> 00:37:34.433
In Christian usage, it's come to refer to a particular set of Jewish religious00:37:34.433 --> 00:37:41.233
texts that were written roughly between 200 BC and maybe even up into the first century AD.00:37:41.853 --> 00:37:47.813
These are books that ended up in some Christian Bibles, but not in the Hebrew00:37:47.813 --> 00:37:54.053
Bible used by the Jews, and the books in question include 1 and 2 Maccabees, the book of Tobit,00:37:54.473 --> 00:38:00.153
Judith, the wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, which is also called Ecclesiasticus,00:38:00.253 --> 00:38:04.513
Baruch, the letter of Jeremiah, and then some additions to the books of Esther00:38:04.513 --> 00:38:09.453
and Daniel, and 1 and 2 Esdras and the prayer of Manasseh.00:38:09.533 --> 00:38:15.413
Roman Catholics call most of those books deuterocanonical, which is a term that00:38:15.413 --> 00:38:20.053
came about in the 16th century by the Catholic theologian Sixtus of Siena.00:38:20.173 --> 00:38:26.073
It is a word that literally means second canon or second collection of authoritative00:38:26.073 --> 00:38:31.173
books, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the Catholics and the Orthodox consider00:38:31.173 --> 00:38:33.753
these books on a second level,00:38:33.913 --> 00:38:39.793
but they were sort of added to the canon at a later stage of recognition.00:38:40.033 --> 00:38:44.433
And most Catholics in Eastern Orthodox and churches of the East,00:38:44.673 --> 00:38:50.293
most of those adherents considered these books to be equally inspired as the00:38:50.293 --> 00:38:52.333
other Old Testament books.00:38:52.913 --> 00:38:58.073
Protestants generally called them apocryphal or the apocrypha, and00:38:58.224 --> 00:39:02.884
Eastern Orthodox Christians use another term, which is translated to things00:39:02.884 --> 00:39:09.724
that are read, and they add even more books, including 3rd Maccabees, Psalm 151,00:39:09.944 --> 00:39:13.744
and depending on the flavor of the Orthodox, even some more other than that.00:39:13.964 --> 00:39:18.804
Some Orthodox churches, like for instance, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church,00:39:18.984 --> 00:39:25.624
adds books like the Book of Enoch to the whole count of these canonical books.00:39:25.624 --> 00:39:30.524
And the bottom line is this, the same seven on the low end, 15,00:39:30.524 --> 00:39:34.764
or even more on the high end, books that one tradition calls scripture,00:39:35.124 --> 00:39:41.844
another tradition calls useful but not scripture, or even I would say most Protestants00:39:41.844 --> 00:39:48.544
today kind of call these apocryphal books not very useful at all and rather to be avoided.00:39:48.544 --> 00:39:56.084
So why do Protestants and modern rabbinical Jews reject the Apocrypha?00:39:56.244 --> 00:40:02.504
Because for the most part, both Protestants and modern Jews who follow the Old00:40:02.504 --> 00:40:06.764
Testament of the Bible, both groups reject the Apocrypha.00:40:06.864 --> 00:40:10.844
Why do they do that? It's a complex question that we're going to cover pretty00:40:10.844 --> 00:40:14.624
deeply on the next couple of episodes, but I want to give you one example.00:40:14.624 --> 00:40:19.844
Some of the texts of the Apocrypha are, quite frankly,00:40:20.484 --> 00:40:24.564
Kind of strange, and they don't seem to fit in very well with the rest of the00:40:24.564 --> 00:40:29.344
66 books of the Old and New Testament that Protestants consider inerrant and00:40:29.344 --> 00:40:32.644
inspired, and let me give you a pretty good example.00:40:32.924 --> 00:40:36.824
From the book of Tobit, chapter 6, verse 8.00:40:37.268 --> 00:40:42.868
The angel said to him, Take out the entrails of the fish and lay up his heart00:40:42.868 --> 00:40:49.528
and his gall and his liver for thee, for these are necessary for useful medicines.00:40:49.888 --> 00:40:53.788
Then Tobias asked the angel and said to him, I beseech thee,00:40:54.008 --> 00:40:58.708
brother Azarias, Azarias being the name of the angel, tell me what remedies00:40:58.708 --> 00:41:02.888
are these things good for which thou hast bid me keep of the fish.00:41:02.888 --> 00:41:07.648
And the angel answering said to him, If you put a little piece of its heart00:41:07.648 --> 00:41:14.068
upon the coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kinds of devils,00:41:14.348 --> 00:41:19.288
either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.00:41:19.408 --> 00:41:25.288
Well, quite frankly, putting pieces of fish hearts on the fire does not seem00:41:25.288 --> 00:41:30.648
to be a very biblical way of driving away devils. and thus this passage seems00:41:30.648 --> 00:41:33.088
a little bit foreign and strange.00:41:33.775 --> 00:41:37.375
To both Old Testament and New Testament practices.00:41:37.815 --> 00:41:42.775
Now, most but not all of our listeners are Protestant, so I have compiled a00:41:42.775 --> 00:41:47.715
couple of top five lists for you that won't answer every question about the00:41:47.715 --> 00:41:51.295
apocryphal books or the Deuteronom canonical books, if you prefer,00:41:51.415 --> 00:41:57.555
but it will be a beginning, and it will help us to dive deeper into the discussion in future episodes.00:41:57.555 --> 00:42:03.195
So let's start out with the first list, five things modern Baptists and Protestants00:42:03.195 --> 00:42:04.995
should know about the Apocrypha.00:42:05.215 --> 00:42:11.555
Number one, the Apocrypha, or the deuterocanonical books, they're not a Catholic invention.00:42:11.555 --> 00:42:16.995
These are ancient Jewish religious writings, mostly composed before Christ,00:42:17.095 --> 00:42:21.795
that they were already circulating in the Greek-speaking world before the New Testament was written.00:42:22.255 --> 00:42:27.215
Most of them were, at any rate. The question is not whether they existed and00:42:27.215 --> 00:42:31.015
whether they're ancient, but how we should treat them, how they should be classified.00:42:31.295 --> 00:42:36.795
Many in the early church read those writings, and Jesus and the apostles often00:42:36.795 --> 00:42:41.975
quoted from the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament,00:42:42.275 --> 00:42:45.315
which itself includes some of these writings.00:42:45.615 --> 00:42:49.995
Though, to be fair and thorough, I don't know of any instance where the New00:42:49.995 --> 00:42:52.035
Testament quotes the Apocrypha,00:42:52.275 --> 00:42:58.455
which is important evidence, but the New Testament book of Jude does indeed00:42:58.455 --> 00:43:00.995
seem to quote from the book of Enoch,00:43:01.195 --> 00:43:07.275
but Enoch is not the proper apocrypha or in the deuterocanonical writings.00:43:07.635 --> 00:43:13.195
All right, number two, some of our Protestant ancestors actually read these apocryphal books.00:43:13.375 --> 00:43:18.975
The pilgrims who landed at Plymouth carried Geneva Bibles that contained the apocrypha.00:43:19.290 --> 00:43:25.470
Treating these texts as exotic or forbidden is really not entirely historically00:43:25.470 --> 00:43:30.010
accurate, but it is clear that beginning right around the time of the Puritans,00:43:30.230 --> 00:43:34.970
the Protestant position on the Apocrypha did become a little more negative.00:43:35.210 --> 00:43:39.770
Number three, five things modern Baptists and Protestants should know about the Apocrypha.00:43:39.890 --> 00:43:44.110
Up until recently, the Protestant position on the Apocrypha has always been00:43:44.110 --> 00:43:49.270
kind of a middle path, not considering it equal to scripture,00:43:49.290 --> 00:43:51.090
but not worthless either.00:43:51.370 --> 00:43:54.970
On the one hand, you have like the Westminster Confession,00:43:55.330 --> 00:44:00.190
Which basically considers apocryphal books as having no authority,00:44:00.190 --> 00:44:06.630
but the Lutherans and Anglicans still read from it during some public scripture reading times.00:44:07.190 --> 00:44:11.790
Number four things modern Baptists and Protestants should know about the Apocrypha.00:44:11.790 --> 00:44:18.590
It can be argued that reading the apocryphal books can really genuinely illuminate the New Testament.00:44:18.910 --> 00:44:23.830
The 400 years between the book of Malachi at the end of the Old Testament and00:44:23.830 --> 00:44:28.950
the book of Matthew and Mark at the beginning of the New Testament were not culturally silent.00:44:29.290 --> 00:44:32.290
Things happened and the Jews wrote about them.00:44:32.570 --> 00:44:39.350
Few scholars or reformers doubt that these books come from the so-called intertestamental period.00:44:39.350 --> 00:44:45.790
1 and 2 Maccabees explain the historical roots of Hanukkah, which is the festival00:44:45.790 --> 00:44:50.310
of dedication that Jesus attends in John 10, verse 22.00:44:50.750 --> 00:44:56.210
The book of Tobit features really what is the first detailed depiction in Jewish00:44:56.210 --> 00:45:02.390
literature of demonic possession, which is quite relevant to how gospel readers00:45:02.390 --> 00:45:05.430
would have understood Jesus' exorcisms.00:45:05.430 --> 00:45:10.630
Although you really could argue that earlier biblical accounts like King Saul's00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.490
evil spirit from the Lord in 1 Samuel 1600:45:14.033 --> 00:45:18.993
Were related to some sort of demonic possession. Number five of five things00:45:18.993 --> 00:45:24.293
Protestants should know about these apocryphal books is that knowing about the00:45:24.293 --> 00:45:29.093
books and what's in the books will equip you for thoughtful conversations with00:45:29.093 --> 00:45:30.653
your Catholic, Orthodox,00:45:30.973 --> 00:45:35.793
Anglican, maybe even your Lutheran friends, and it will help you read older,00:45:35.953 --> 00:45:42.513
Reformed Protestant works without confusion when they talk about the Maccabees or Ecclesiasticus.00:45:42.513 --> 00:45:47.153
And really, it'll also help you understand the early church fathers as well.00:45:47.313 --> 00:45:49.953
And they wrote extensively about these books.00:45:50.133 --> 00:45:55.553
And along those lines, here is what John Calvin wrote about Baruch,00:45:56.013 --> 00:45:58.193
One of the books of the Apocrypha.00:45:58.433 --> 00:46:02.493
And I note that he called Baruch a prophet.00:46:02.853 --> 00:46:09.473
Calvin says the soul buried in its own darkness is blind. It is also dumb not00:46:09.473 --> 00:46:14.833
being able to confess unto salvation what it has believed unto righteousness.00:46:15.133 --> 00:46:20.593
It is deaf not hearing that living voice. The soul is lame, unable to support00:46:20.593 --> 00:46:26.233
itself, having none to whom it can say, You have held my right hand and conducted me in thy will.00:46:26.573 --> 00:46:30.653
In short, the soul performs no one function of life.00:46:30.793 --> 00:46:37.393
For thus speaks the prophet when he would show that the fountain of life is with God.00:46:37.673 --> 00:46:42.633
Baruch 3.14, learn where there is prudence, where there is virtue,00:46:42.933 --> 00:46:46.953
where there is understanding, where there is length of life and food,00:46:47.153 --> 00:46:49.413
where there is light to the eyes and peace.00:46:49.613 --> 00:46:54.353
Well, that's interesting. And to be clear, Calvin, nor really pretty much any00:46:54.353 --> 00:46:59.933
of the reformers, accepted these books as authoritative and canonical,00:47:00.253 --> 00:47:04.813
infallible and inspired like the other 66 books of the Bible. But he.00:47:04.950 --> 00:47:09.870
They had different opinions on the Apocrypha, some of them better than others.00:47:10.050 --> 00:47:14.970
And Luther himself had a very nuanced view that we will get into a little bit00:47:14.970 --> 00:47:18.170
more on our upcoming episodes. But let me close out with this.00:47:18.570 --> 00:47:22.290
Five interesting factoids about the Apocrypha.00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:29.410
Number one, the 1611, as we've already referenced, King James Version was published00:47:29.410 --> 00:47:33.910
with the Apocrypha. It contained roughly 80 books, not 66.00:47:34.390 --> 00:47:41.770
And the apocryphal books were sort of wedged there between the Old Testament and the New Testament.00:47:41.790 --> 00:47:44.670
And they were in there, like I said, for a couple of hundred years.00:47:44.830 --> 00:47:48.690
And not just the King James Version. Also, the Geneva Bible,00:47:48.830 --> 00:47:53.350
the Bishop's Bible, the Tyndale Bible, the Coverdale Bible, and many other early00:47:53.350 --> 00:47:58.530
translations of the Bible for Protestants had the apocrypha in it.00:47:58.530 --> 00:48:03.870
Number two, even in some Protestant traditions, the Maccabean martyrs,00:48:03.950 --> 00:48:08.290
which are written about in 1st and 2nd Maccabees, are considered as saints.00:48:08.510 --> 00:48:12.930
The mother and seven sons whose torture is described in 2nd Maccabees chapter00:48:12.930 --> 00:48:20.090
7 are commemorated as saints in the Catholic Orthodox and some Lutheran liturgical calendars.00:48:20.290 --> 00:48:24.510
And Augustine, St. Augustine, notes the irony in his book, The City of God,00:48:24.610 --> 00:48:29.190
that the city of Antioch, which was the capital of the Seleucid Empire that00:48:29.190 --> 00:48:34.410
persecuted the Maccabees, eventually housed a major shrine in their honor.00:48:34.670 --> 00:48:42.050
Number three factoid about the Apocrypha, some Protestant Amish to this day00:48:42.050 --> 00:48:44.990
recite the Apocrypha at their weddings,00:48:45.210 --> 00:48:49.850
primarily the retelling of the marriage of Tobias and Sarah from the book of00:48:49.850 --> 00:48:55.210
Tobit, and some Anabaptists, where Southern Baptists trace their roots,00:48:55.690 --> 00:49:02.370
still today use the Luther Bible, and they have continued to read the Apocrypha for centuries.00:49:03.051 --> 00:49:10.491
Number four, Jerome is a scholar from the 300s who translated the Bible into Latin.00:49:10.811 --> 00:49:15.631
Jerome really produced maybe the first major translation of the Bible from the00:49:15.631 --> 00:49:17.631
Greek. It was called the Vulgate.00:49:17.871 --> 00:49:21.691
There were translations before that, but his was like the first major one.00:49:21.871 --> 00:49:28.011
He translated the Apocrypha also, but he did so under quite a bit of protest,00:49:28.011 --> 00:49:32.471
and he wrote about it in the prologue to his translation. Number five, finally.00:49:32.929 --> 00:49:37.349
The hymn, which may not be sung in a ton of Baptist churches now,00:49:37.509 --> 00:49:42.709
but a hymn I am familiar with, Now Thank We All Our God, is a Lutheran hymn00:49:42.709 --> 00:49:44.589
that is based on the Apocrypha.00:49:44.829 --> 00:49:50.769
It's not drawn from the Old or New Testament, but the book of Sirach, chapter 50.00:49:51.409 --> 00:49:56.609
For centuries, German Lutherans and many other Protestants, because it was made00:49:56.609 --> 00:49:58.709
popular by Johann Sebastian Bach,00:49:58.889 --> 00:50:05.349
have heard this hymn and sang the words to it, not really realizing perhaps00:50:05.349 --> 00:50:07.809
that it was based on the book of Sirach.00:50:07.989 --> 00:50:14.569
So, should the Apocrypha be considered as infallible and inerrant and inspired00:50:14.569 --> 00:50:16.109
scripture by Protestants?00:50:16.189 --> 00:50:21.789
I don't think so. And we'll make that case in some upcoming episodes why these00:50:21.789 --> 00:50:26.569
are books that are interesting to read and maybe even edifying,00:50:26.789 --> 00:50:34.229
but fall short of canonical authority because they don't appear to be inerrant00:50:34.229 --> 00:50:41.629
and infallible and inspired in the same way these other 66 books of the Bible are.00:50:41.789 --> 00:50:45.129
I would love to hear from you. What do you think about the Apocrypha?00:50:45.269 --> 00:50:48.809
Have you ever read it? Do you have any opinions on it?00:50:49.069 --> 00:50:53.509
One way you can contact us is through our website, everychurchflourishing.com.00:50:53.589 --> 00:50:57.689
You can leave a voicemail, or you can just simply send an email there,00:50:57.949 --> 00:50:59.609
everychurchflourishing.com.00:50:59.689 --> 00:51:02.649
Between now and next week, I would encourage you to tell a friend about the00:51:02.649 --> 00:51:07.349
show, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, and we will be back one week from00:51:07.349 --> 00:51:09.969
today with a great interview.00:51:10.209 --> 00:51:12.409
Very insightful words from Dr.00:51:12.709 --> 00:51:17.769
Kristen Ferguson of Gateway Seminary. Can't wait for that. Good day to you, and Godspeed.
